August 07, 2004


First he was in favour of reading the book, and then he was against it:

Sen. John Kerry yesterday said he wouldn't have stuck around to read to children after learning of the September 11 attacks, directly criticizing President Bush's actions that day.

"First of all, had I been reading to children, and had my top aide whispered in my ear, 'America is under attack,' I would have told those kids very politely and nicely that the president of the United States had business that he needed to attend to, and I would have attended to it."

Show pony. How would Kerry have "attended to it"? Thrown his medals at the remaining hijacked aircraft? Testified before Congress? Hugged Max Cleland? Rudy isn’t impressed:

Former New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani responded, "John Kerry must be frustrated in his campaign if he is armchair quarterbacking based on cues from Michael Moore." Mr. Moore's documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" chides the president for remaining with the students instead of leaving immediately upon hearing of the second attack.

Leave aside that if Bush had rushed from the room, possibly leaving the children confused and upset, Moore would have accused him of not projecting strength and calm. Consider instead Moore’s reaction to a dilemma of his own, over which he delayed not a mere seven minutes, but several months:

Filmmaker Michael Moore says he had footage of prisoner abuse in Iraq long before the atrocities captured international attention, but decided to stay quiet until his new movie came out. Now he's questioning that decision.

"I had it months before the story broke on '60 Minutes,' and I really struggled with what to do with it," Moore told the San Francisco Chronicle. "I wanted to come out with it sooner, but I thought I'd be accused of just putting this out for publicity for my movie. That prevented me from making maybe the right decision."


UPDATE. Via comments, John Kerry’s response to September 11:

Sen. Kerry, who criticized President Bush for not rushing out of the Florida classroom for seven minutes, sat paralyzed with his colleagues for a full forty minutes. He is hardly in a position to criticize President Bush for "inaction."

Says one thing, does another. Becoming a theme, isn’t it?

Posted by Tim Blair at August 7, 2004 03:16 AM

Will anyone in the major media ask Mr. Moore to provide evidence that "he had it" months ahead of 60 Minutes, et al?

Posted by: Major John at August 7, 2004 at 03:50 AM

Yeah that seven minutes is a real big deal. For all anyone knows, what was whispered to the President was "A second plane hit the WTC. The military has been notified and Air Force One will be ready to fly in 10 minutes."

Posted by: Ken Summers at August 7, 2004 at 03:51 AM

"Fraud" is too kind, Tim. I'd offer alternatives, but that would take far too much bandwidth (and not just because we are discussing Fat Mikey).

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 03:52 AM

Don't hold your breath, MJ

Posted by: Ken Summers at August 7, 2004 at 03:53 AM

Mailman, in another thread, found Kerry's reaction on 9/11. Excellent post, mailman!

Kerry sat shocked until the Pentagon was attacked, almost 40 minutes. That's a normal, human reaction, for someone not in the heat of action.

Bush sat still for 7 minutes, and then went off on his duties. That's a good reaction time for a leader not directly involved in the action.

MM is fraud (for lack of better invective). Kerry is a flip-flop loser.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 04:02 AM

Says one thing, does another. Becoming a theme, isn’t it?

i think the theme would actually be "Says one thing, does another. Then another."

Posted by: Mr. Bingley at August 7, 2004 at 04:26 AM

Or "Says one thing, then says another. Does nothing."

Posted by: Paul Zrimsek at August 7, 2004 at 04:32 AM

i just want to pull his fucking hair out!!!!!!
or and michael ass moore also.

Posted by: andrea/minnesota at August 7, 2004 at 04:55 AM

From the Ponderosa

In an interview with Larry King on CNN, July 8, 2004, Sen. Kerry was asked where he was the morning of September 11th. Here is part of his response:

Kerry: "...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

Kerry states that he cannot think under pressure.

Posted by: perfectsense at August 7, 2004 at 04:58 AM

I want to address these next words directly to President George W. Bush.

In the weeks ahead, let's be optimists, not just opponents. Let's build unity in the American family, not angry division. Let's honor this nation's diversity. Let's respect one another. And let's never misuse for political purposes the most precious document in American history, the Constitution of the United States.

My friends, the high road may be harder, but it leads to a better place.

That didn't last long.

Posted by: Tom Maguire at August 7, 2004 at 05:51 AM

You fools. Shall I connect the dots for you?

For seven minutes - SEVEN MINUTES! - Bush did nothing. And all you can say is, "What was he supposed to do in a scant seven minutes that would have made any difference?"

Hello? What was George Bush doing while John Kerry was saving lives and getting lots of medals in Vietnam? BINGO! He was (allegedly) a fighter pilot! So, why didn't he get into an F-16, scramble, identify the plane heading toward the Pentagon, confirm it was under terrorist control, and shoot it down? Simple - either (A) Bush was never a National Guard fighter pilot as he claims, or (B) Bush had planned to have time to finish the book he was reading to the children, but the Halliburton-paid, Mossad-trained Saudi Air Force pilots who hijacked the planes crashed them ahead of schedule, and Bush was too stupid to ad-lib an appropriately-urgent exit.

Wow! This is easy! I'm gonna make a way-cool movie!

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 06:09 AM

Dave, I hope you will remember to invite your friends on this blog to a suitably lavish grand opening celebration. I for one would love to help celebrate your coming of age in Hollywood.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 06:23 AM

The "40 minutes" assertion rests on a fact not yet in evidence - the precise time Kerry saw the second plane hit the WTC. If he saw it on a replay then it could have been much less than 40 minutes. Of course, as a Senator he wouldn't have the same responsibilities and resources available to the President Bush, so it's a rather absurd to compare their reactions anyway, especially since one is documented on film and the other is based on a vague answer to a Larry King question.

Posted by: MaB at August 7, 2004 at 06:59 AM

Hey, the premiere will probably be at Guantanamo, once Ashcroft and his goons get wind of my courageous dissent and crush it! Crush crush crush! I'm a hero! Look at me, look at me!

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 07:05 AM

14 months is a "rush to war."

Seven minutes is a "fatal paralysis."

Jesus, I wouldn't be surprised if Lefties start calling Bush "double-plus-ungood."

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 07:13 AM

MaB, from the CNN transcript:

"I was in the Capitol. We'd just had a meeting -- we'd just come into a leadership meeting in Tom Daschle's office, looking out at the Capitol. And as I came in, Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon. And then word came from the White House, they were evacuating, and we were to evacuate, and so we immediately began the evacuation."

Doesn't sound like he watched a replay to me. Nor does it sound vague; note the details of his actions. And this was over 2 years in the past at the time of the interview.

(Do you remember what you were doing when you heard about the attacks on 9/11? I do....and so does Kerry.)

But let's give Kerry the benefit of the doubt that he did, and say he sat in stunned silence for as little as, say, 7 minutes.

So what if he wasn't the President then? He is running for President now, and telling us what he would have done then. By his own words, he "...sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think...".

Don't spin this one. If Bush is to be held accountable for those 7 minutes, so can Kerry. His actions and his words are different. This is yet another flip-flop for him.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 07:14 AM

Of course, as a Senator he wouldn't have the same responsibilities and resources available to the President Bush, so it's a rather absurd to compare their reactions anyway

Of course, that level of absurdity did not stop Kerry from attempting to make political hay out of the notion that he would have reacted much better, if only he'd been in GWB's position (as noted by Tim). The fact that he didn't have Bush's responsibilities and still reacted with nothing but a lengthy state of paralysis seems noteworthy to me in that context. It's nothing to condemn him over (most of us probably reacted the same way he did), but his veiled jab at Bush is rather petty, simple as that. And the echoing-Michael-Moore-and-other-moonbats subtext doesn't help.

Posted by: PW at August 7, 2004 at 07:25 AM

Oh, come on, guys, it's perfectly obvious and consistent what Kerry did: He took bold, decisive action.

Right before be froze in stunned shock.

Or maybe it was a bold, decisive decision to freeze in stunned shock? Yeah, I like that one better... the bold passivity of inactive determination!

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at August 7, 2004 at 07:35 AM

Super Senatooorrrr!!! should have torn off his regular suit revealing his super senatoooorrr!!! outfit and flew to the floor of the Senate and immediately passed some extremely effective anti-terror legislation, maybe kinda retrospective like the way that superman did in Superman: The Movie!

Cos the kid in the brown underoos sitting thinking about goats up the tree -- you know, the one actually on the Executive Branch at the time -- wasn't up to diddly poop...

Posted by: baker at August 7, 2004 at 07:38 AM

Ah, baker -- you people are so cute when you think you're being clever.

Tell us all how Kerry's 40 minutes of paralysis was better than Bush's 7 minutes of grace under pressure.

Posted by: John Nowak at August 7, 2004 at 07:49 AM

Well, look at little kiddo baker attempting to simultaneously spin Kerry's inaction as a good thing, and Bush's "inaction" as something bad.

(Scare quotes because Bush actually did do something; he finished his reading session in an orderly manner after all. Kerry apparently would have been too shell-shocked for even that, by his own admission.)

Posted by: PW at August 7, 2004 at 07:52 AM

BTW baker, most people would be content if Kerry had been responsible for any kind of "effective legislation", at any point in time during his 20-year stay in the Senate. So, trying to be sarcastic about the fact that Kerry didn't go out and enact some tough legislation right after the planes hit the towers seems to be unintentionally funny, given Kerry's backbencher record.

Posted by: PW at August 7, 2004 at 07:57 AM

"Of course, as a Senator he wouldn't have the same responsibilities and resources available to the President Bush, so it's a rather absurd to compare their reactions anyway, especially since one is documented on film and the other is based on a vague answer to a Larry King question."

Of course that comparison is exactly what Senator Kerry is asking us to make. *IF* he were President he *would have* done X, Y or Z. (with three years of hindsight)

However the right's criticism of Kerry's after Vietnam record is out of bounds. Because *We weren't* there. We didn't know what he was going through. We didn't live though the commission of war crimes. We can't know how it changed him. If it even did.

Net effect of what we are being asked to understand is Kerry can put himself in other's shoes, but no one else can put themselves in *his* shoes. (after all few could afford them anyway)

Posted by: cannon at August 7, 2004 at 08:01 AM

Grace under pressure? Speculating (wildly) that someone OTHER THAN the Cmdr in Chief ordered the military into action? (are you aware of the chain of command? it doesn't get bypassed because the Prez is reading "My Pet Goat") You people are hilarious.

Bush did NOTHING for seven minutes after being told our country was under attack!!! The original plan for 911 was for TEN PLANES. Are you that stupid?!? He wasted crucial time - for NO good reason! Bush was the COMMANDER IN CHIEF and he failed to lead.

If you really think sitting there and reading "My Pet Goat" is appropriate leadership, then you Sirs are truly brainwashed into thinking Bush can do no wrong.

Posted by: hphovercraft at August 7, 2004 at 08:07 AM

"Or maybe it was a bold, decisive decision to freeze in stunned shock? Yeah, I like that one better... the bold passivity of inactive determination!"

This must be an example of Kerry's highly nuanced, able-to-see-the-complexities-in-everything mind.

Posted by: SusanS at August 7, 2004 at 08:10 AM

I wonder if the Secret Service told him "Hold tight, we're going to make sure it's safe here since we have no idea of the extent of this. We also need some time to ensure Air Force One has an alternate flight plan."

Geez, what am I saying. That would, like, never happen in the real world. Instead, with only this piece of film to guide me, I think I'll read Bush's mind as he sat with the kids in Florida. I believe he was thinking: "When's lunch?"

Now, doesn't that make much more sense? Of COURSE it does!

Posted by: Steve in Houston at August 7, 2004 at 08:13 AM

Excellent prose, Mr. Blair! I smirked out loud over "How would Kerry have "attended to it"? Thrown his medals at the remaining hijacked aircraft?"

Posted by: JustSomeGuy at August 7, 2004 at 08:13 AM

The events of 9-11-01 caught caught us living in a fool's paradise. So I can't fault either Bush or Kerry... there were thousands and millions of us who were stunned into inaction by the unspeakable.

But I will fault Kerry for stooping to a Moore-inspired cheapshot, instead of taking the opportunity to behave as graciously as he lectures everyone else to do.

The man has not learned to master himself, and I do not want him practicing at the helm of my country.

Posted by: Dave at August 7, 2004 at 08:16 AM

John Kerry would at the very least have activated this super secret system!

What did Bush do? Nothing!

Posted by: Walsingham at August 7, 2004 at 08:23 AM

hphovercraft said:

"If you really think sitting there and reading "My Pet Goat" is appropriate leadership, then you Sirs are truly brainwashed into thinking Bush can do no wrong."

First -- who said Bush can do no wrong? Anyone here? Please raise your Right, then. Bush is human, so he can and does make mistakes. If anyone in this blog thinks otherwise, they be a fool.

But you are going right back to the typical leftoid spin on this -- Bush should have done SOMETHING for 7 minutes! I'm still not sure what, but NEVER EVER sit there with young children in front of cameras and look calm. Gosh, no! Can't have that, can we?

Frankly, you would criticize anything Bush did in those 7 minutes because you hate Bush. It's all about the oil, Halliburton will be running Iraq, and Hitler fits in here someplace -- I'm sure you'll point out anything I've missed.

By the way, did you notice that Kerry did nothing for at least 7 minutes, but sat in stunned silence? Not that's a problem or anything, because he wasn't sitting with children in front of cameras. Perhaps he was collecting his thoughts, or just outraged at the deaths of thousands. And as President, Kerry would have leapt to his feet, and rushed to Air Force 1 to be decisive. Golly, he just said so!

And all Bush did was reassure a group of young and impressionable children. Tsk, tsk, what a poor sense of priorities. He wasn't trying to save your sorry ass, hphovercraft. Kerry would have, right?

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 08:24 AM

The latest employment numbers are out and they are not as high as some had hoped but they have knocked the national unemployment rate down to 5.5%.

Clinton ran for reelection in 1996 with an unemployment rate of 5.6% and he was regarded as a economic whiz kid.

Bush is of course being maligned for this rate today by Kerry.

If Kerry wins, by 2008, 5.5% will look unattainably grand as the economy founders after a series of attacks that the Senator will have no clue on how to respond.

He choked for twenty years in the Senate, backing the wrong horses every time, choked in the Phillipines, choked on 9/11, choked in his first marriage, in his post-war behavior...

Kerry is not presidential material. The Democrats goofed.

Posted by: JDB at August 7, 2004 at 08:24 AM

Good grief. Kerry would've stopped reading to the kids before he started reading to 'em again!

Remember, when told of the Pearl Harbor attack FDR said immediately to his aides:

"Start planning forthwith for the following

(1) Invasion of Normandy

(2) Nuking Japan."

Think he wasted 7 minutes you Kook members of the VWRC?

Posted by: TomCom at August 7, 2004 at 08:25 AM

Over at Little Green Footballs there is a regular commenter using the handle "Reaganite" who is currently on active duty in the Secret Service. He explained that in attack scenarios, the SS takes control. On 911, Bush was instructed to keep going as normal while the SS set up a perimeter and plotted an alternate route to the airport where they could board Air Force One. They altered the route in case there was an attack planned against the President. These actions are Standard Operating Procedure for SS. Once they were ready, they signaled Bush to wrap up and hustled him out to the airplane. Air Force One is a complete flying command center and it was urgent to get there and get into the air where quickly arranged fighter escorts from Eglin AFB (F-15's IIRC) would rendevous.

Much of this has been documented in the 911 Commission report, IIRC. Most of the delay was necessary to give SS time to set up their altered, emergency quick-departure and call for fighter escorts. Seven minutes strikes me as rather fast considering all that had to be done.

The blather by Kerry is not only cheap and completely unjustified, it also shows that Kerry hasn't paid close attention to the 911 Commission report. Kerry's zero executive experience is leading him astray; he's displaying a complete lack of understanding for security matters. How much on-the-job training is tolerable during wartime?

Posted by: Dean Douthat at August 7, 2004 at 08:27 AM

And you, sir, have been brainwashed into thinking Bush can do no right.

At least our brainwashing gives us a bit of perspective. At least it doesn't make us hysterical at the thought that someone might have wasted 420 seconds wrapping up a book reading rather than running around like a headless chicken blindly doing whatever else you would rather condemn him for doing.

Posted by: Jason at August 7, 2004 at 08:29 AM

OK, folks, one historical footnote. When Stalin was told that Hitler had attacked the Soviet Union, he sat in a funk for (at least) a full day, rising from his seat either at the end of the first day or several days later.

Posted by: Steve at August 7, 2004 at 08:38 AM

Hovercraft -- you don't have the first clue what you are talking about. Rather quickly there were 16s in the air with orders to shoot down, and within 45 minutes the entire US airspace had been sanitised. The UK was notified and they shut down /their/ airspace, preventing two planes targeted on Westminster from ever taking off.

When you see a 2-star reaching for his pistol you know you're in a bad fight, but generally these sorts of orders do not need to be originated (or even approved) by CIC. It's designed that way.

Arrogant, partisan, ignoramus.

Posted by: OldCIA at August 7, 2004 at 08:39 AM
Remember, when told of the Pearl Harbor attack FDR said immediately to his aides:

"Start planning forthwith for the following

(1) Invasion of Normandy

(2) Nuking Japan."

I assume this is a parody, since nuclear weapons didn't even exist at the time. Also, it's worth pointing out that apparently FDR was stunned and useless for some time after Pearl Harbour, probably a lot more than 7 minutes. Posted by: Bill at August 7, 2004 at 08:45 AM


Dock the hovercraft and think about what you have written:

"Bush did NOTHING for seven minutes after being told our country was under attack!!!"

You can't be serious. Do you think that in the seven minutes after the second plane confirmed an attack was happening that Bush would have been provided with sufficient information to formulate a coherent plan? Do you think ANYONE in that seven minutes was prepared to give him solid information that he could use? It was SEVEN MINUTES.

"The original plan for 911 was for TEN PLANES."

So what happened to the other six, and how is that seven minutes germane to that?

"Are you that stupid?!?"

Are you that irrational?

"He wasted crucial time - for NO good reason!"

Here's a good reason - he's got his fingers on the button of a nuclear arsenal. Personally, I want a guy in that position to take some time to "check his shit." Reading a story to some kids seems like a good way to check your shit.

"Bush was the COMMANDER IN CHIEF and he failed to lead."

You can't lead without info. Would you have preferred seven minutes of barking meaningless orders to people who know their jobs and are trying to determine what's happening in a chaotic situation? And what disaster resulted from those oh-so-crucial seven minutes?

Grow up. Use your brain.

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 08:46 AM

Didn't it occur to Senator Kerry that the Capitol might be a target? If I had seen crashes One and Two on live TV while sitting inside ONE OF THE HIGHEST VALUE TARGETS ON EARTH, I'd have run for the bomb shelter. Sad that the Army staff folks at the Pentagon didn't get the word.

Posted by: slimedog at August 7, 2004 at 08:51 AM

One more thing - only two things had to be done immediately on 9-11:

1) Shut down the airports

2) Scramble the jets.

You can bet that no order from Bush was needed in those cases. Americans take initiative, and I'm sure every FAA honcho who saw what happened was taking action, and every airbase commander had, at minimum, got his pilots into their cockpits.

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 08:57 AM

MaB, I find the level of hypocrisy fascinating.

One of the tenets that Bush LIED! is that Bush said he remembered seeing the first plane hit the WTC. How could that be?!?? There was no footage of it! Misremembering what he saw, or perhaps saying "saw" as opposed to "heard," not possible. IT MUST BE A LIE!

Yet, when Kerry says that he saw the second plane hit the WTC, but that story is unfortunately indicative of a 40-minute delay? Nope, must've been a replay. COULDN'T BE ANYTHING ELSE! Is it a lie, then? From Kerry? Of course not!

As for what the Prez could have done in SEVEN MINUTES, perhaps some of you are honest enough to actually read the 9-11 Commission report.

The FAA people spent nearly half an hour trying to figure out if they were even supposed to call NORAD. Some of the first fighters were vectored OUT TO SEA (as per SOP). The 113th's fighters were scrambled under the authority of the wing commander (talking to the Secret Service) and given "weapons free" orders while NORAD-controlled fighters were NOT under "weapons free."

This from trained military people, air traffic controllers, folks who LIVE day-to-day w/ the prospect of unthinkable disaster.

Yet, SEN Kerry, and you apparently, KNOW that in seven minutes, Kerry would've gotten everything fixed and ready, or that Bush SHOULD. Whatever you ACTUALLY did that day.


Posted by: Dean at August 7, 2004 at 08:58 AM

Stupid question -- has anyone established what kind of transportation Bush had at that stop? I mean, if he had a helicopter outside, it may have taken seven minutes to pre-flight it, and the Secret Service would NEVER let the President get into a chopper rushed into service.

Or maybe they told him it was 20 minutes to pre-flight Air Force one, and a ten-minute drive to the airport.

Basically, has anyone bothered to find out of the seven minutes MEANT anything?

As others have pointed out, the US has a command structure for a reason; the immediate responses were handled by them, and Bush needed to get his head together and think long-term MUCH MORE than he needed twitch-reflexes.

Posted by: Robert Crawford at August 7, 2004 at 09:01 AM

By the way, everyone....
Bush was not reading to the children at the time Andrew Card came over and whispered to him. The children were reading TO HIM. He let them finish instead of freaking them out by interrupting them, jumping up and saying something ridiculous like "The President has to go take care of something right now...have your milk and cookies."
I think he did the right thing. And knowing what the Secret Service was doing in the background makes it all make even more sense.

Posted by: Linda at August 7, 2004 at 09:04 AM

When the first plane hit the WTC, I don't think any of us, including our government officials, realized it was as attack. 7 minutes? First thoughts: well, the buildings were designed to withstand aircraft collision. Happened before. Joy riding pilot off course. Tragic, but you have to expect these things. What, it's a jumbo jet? How'd that happen System error? Pilot heart attack? WTF?!? It wasn't 'til the second jet roared into the WTC that we all realized this was not an accident. And at this point, a certain amount of numbness was an appropriate reaction.
Now, let's hear fro the Moonbats who not only knew immediately that we were under attack, but could've stopped the other 3 planes if only they'd finished their cornflakes a couple of minutes earlier.

Posted by: nofixedabode at August 7, 2004 at 09:06 AM

The stupid thing is that none of this is new. Not even the Kerry quote from the CNN interview. All of it has been discussed before.

And yet the leftoid moonbats come swooping in to bark and crap all over the place with the same nonsense. To me, it's proof positive that Kerry is not suitable as President -- because all of these cretins support him (since Kerry is not Bush = Hitler, etc, etc, ad nauseum).

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 09:27 AM

hphovercraft, I'll wager you've never accomplished anything serious or productive in your life, or you wouldn't mistake "activity" for "work."

Posted by: John Nowak at August 7, 2004 at 09:37 AM

both sides need to pipe down.
this discussion is meaningless.
Everyone was stunned on 911.. period

Posted by: gijoe at August 7, 2004 at 09:43 AM

Hah! When 9/11 happened I was busy getting into my superhero outfit and getting ready to pull the jets out of the air with my bare hands.

...Ok, Ok, I was drunk, and trying to feel up a girl. Hey, it was midnight in Australia.

Posted by: Quentin George at August 7, 2004 at 09:49 AM

Things Kerry could have done while he couldn’t think for 40 minutes on 9/11.

1. Get his 8mm camera and take pictures of him heroically saving Washington.
2. Order gourmet sandwiches,
3. Call France and warning them about traveling to New York,
4. Place stop losses on his wife’s stock portfolio.
5. Run to his office and saving his medals he threw away.
6. Call for his $35 Gulf Stream jet to come pick him up and take him to his secure ski lodge in Idaho.
7. Volunteer for Swiftboat duty on the Potomac River.

Instead, he just state there and did nothing while thousands of Americans burned.

Posted by: perfectsense at August 7, 2004 at 09:51 AM

Pres. Bush's actions on 9/11 were appropriate for the situation. Would someone else have acted differently? Perhaps. However whatever actions, or non-actions, were taken by the president in those 7 mins. wouldn't have made a difference in the outcome. There wasn't anything that needed to be done, in those 7 mins., that required a presidential order. *What* could the president have done during those 7 mins. that wasn't already being done?

If we lived in a dictatorship, or some Communist hell hole, *then* the president would be required to act or nothing would be done at all. The US doesn't stop, nor is it helpless, just because the CIC isn't issuing all the orders. There are others in the chain of command.

As others have pointed out Pres. Bush acted like a true leader. He didn't dash around barking orders because there was no reliable information at the time. He completed his time with the children and didn't frighten them. He allowed his staff to do what they needed to do. Then he left and did what he needed to do.

As far as I can tell, on 9/11 everyone acted as well as they could under the circumstances. Could things have been done better? Probably. But it's easy to say that *after* the fact.

Ordinary people did extraordinary things that day. I think we surprised ourselves at how well everyone worked together under such horrible conditions. We didn't need a president issuing orders to tell us how to act.

This ranting and raving about Bush and the 'seven minutes' is just nonsense and should be treated with the contempt it deserves. We are not children who need to have Daddy President lead us by the hand in everything we do. A president is a leader, not a micro manager. There is a difference.

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 7, 2004 at 10:08 AM

So I grab dinner tonight from one of those little chinese take out places (chicken lo-mein, thanks for asking)...and I was thinking, every one of these little places has the exact same menu, with the exact same calendar, and the exact same pictures of the exact same meals hanging over the counter.

Obviously there is some central planning here. Now, I've been in a lot of these takeout places and only one time did I see a non-Chinese person working there. I always see the newspapers written in chinese on a table. Something is going on.

Each city must have a hundred of these places. If each has 8-10 employees that's a lot of workers. I'm pretty sure they are waiting on a signal from the motherland to take over. We'd have no chance.

The threat to the US is not the middle east, or North Korea. It's from China. All through No. 1 Chinese Takeout, and Golden Panda Chinese, and A1 Chinese, etc.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 10:24 AM

So I'm in the parking lot at the golf course this afternoon and one space over from me there's this guy with this late model Mustang. He's putting away his bag and stuff and I happen to notice this tag hanging from the latch mechanism inside his trunk. It's a glow-in-the-dark tag with a picture of a car with an open trunk, an arrow pointing out, a little running man stick figure and three dots. I've since come to find out that this is a safety feature called the Emergency Trunk Release and that it's there in case you 'accidentally' lock yourself inside the trunk.

Have you ever seen the inside of a Mustang trunk? You couldn't even 'accidentally' lock a kid inside the trunk. (OK, maybe if the kid was sufficiently doped up, but if you had a doped-up kid in the trunk I think the latch would have been the first thing to go. On the other hand, this latch-release thing would have certainly livened up the opening scene of Goodfellas.)

I wonder how Ford came up with the stats necessary to include the Emergency Trunk Release as a safety feature. "Well, we could make side-curtain airbags standard." "No, I think the money's best put into the trunk."

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 10:31 AM

The principal of my Elementary School was "Dr. Newbury". And he demanded respect.

Found out years after I graduated that his Doctorate was on honorary one. From the "Staley School of the Spoken Word".

What a douchebag.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 10:32 AM

Top 5 Least Desirable "Old School" Ways To Die:

1) Burned at the stake. Dying in a fire is one thing as you would more than likely become unconscious first from the smoke/heat. Howvever, a live burning of any type would be ridiculous pain.

2)[The Rack. Slow death by bodily separation. Yeah.

3) Stoned to Death. Yeah and not in a good way. "Throw rocks at me 'til I'm pummeled to bloody unconsciousness? Sure."

4) Drawn and Quartered. Not as painful as D/Q due to the quickness of the act, but still, the thought of being dismembered by horses pulling in 4 different directions ....egads.

5) Maced. Not the spray but the mallet with the spikes. You know it would take a few hard whacks to take you out, and those first one or two hits are bound to sting.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 10:34 AM

So I'm driving my truck to work this morning, when I feel the need to stop at the local Dunkin Donuts for an iced coffee. Driving along, I'm about 3 or 4 sips into the beverage, enjoying the morning, when something happened that will forever change my life. The cover suddenly jumped off the cup as the cup proceeded to flip upside down pouring the contents out, seemingly all over my lap and the console. However, after the initial shock I was confused to find no liquid on any of my clothing. After a quick further review, there was also no liquid to be found on the car seats or floor. You see, the entire iced coffee, every drop of it flowed directly into the two plastic sealed cupholders within the console. Of course the aforementioned cupholders were just large enough to house a medium iced coffee, but too small to allow me to scoop the contents out with the only tool available - the now empty Dunkin Donuts cup. I was then forced to drive quite defensively, turning was particularly challenging, as to not give gravity an excuse to overflow icey drink onto the seats or myself. That was 7 hours ago. The coffee is still there, I just don't have the heart to remove it. You see, I think all this happened for a reason, I think I may be Jesus. That coupled with the fact that I saw a horse walking on the beach today.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 10:41 AM

Ah, Bill! LOL! Thank you. I needed some comedy in the midst of this nonsense.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 10:51 AM

Impaling. I wouldn't want to be impaled.

That thing with a hot poker up your ass would suck, too. Is there a name for that? I bet it's cool. The name, I mean. The poker would suck.

I used to think that defenestration would be horrible, too, until I found out it just meant being chucked out a window. That was about the same time I found out that seppuku meant disemboweling yourself.

If you had asked me before that to choose between seppuku and defenestration, I'd have picked seppuku. Just shows to go ya.

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 11:26 AM

I wouldn't mind hanging if I could get my jerk on, too. I hear that rocks.

Posted by: Dave S. at August 7, 2004 at 11:27 AM

That's how INXS's lead singer died, you know!

Posted by: Quentin George at August 7, 2004 at 11:52 AM

I dip into the site every now and then and find it has descended from being a reasonably sensible bastion of liberal/libertarian good sense to now become a padded cell with shrieking, backy-chewing trailor-trash ranting about John Kerry, the insignificant Margo Kingston and that phony but equally unimportant Phatty Adams. Not much here resembles the traditional conservative side of Australian politics any more. Most of what goes on here now is a mimeograph of the NRA, Red State bilge pumped out over here every day. What has gone wrong? Most libs in Australia have plenty in common with Kerry and the Dems, particularly on fiscal management. Why just the cheering for W? There are enough of that around and, frankly, with a Google ranking of 53,000, your efforts are hardly likely to affect anything much in the US. Why not a more nuanced view of the world that might include the following?

Bush's goals in Iraq were good and just, but the execution has been unforgivably incompetent. Bush is probably intelligent, but certainly incurious. He's blown a budget surplus in ways that would upset any good market economist.

Kerry seems intelligent and decent. The man is a war hero. He is a distinguished legislator and would probably be a fine president.

Howard has been an excellent PM, and he, more than any other politician understands the Australian electorate. He was dead right on Iraq, East Timor and gun control. And contrary to what Tim might say, the Tampa was an unmitigated disaster for liberals. Why? Because a true liberal/libertarian believes in freedom of the factors of production, including people and their labour. Badgering Afghans, Pakis or whoever they were shouldn't be part of the liberal character, if we're to be consistent with the philosophy.

Latham is a flakey thug and thoroughly untested. His becoming PM could be a calamity of Whitlam proportions.

Posted by: Boston Brahmin at August 7, 2004 at 12:14 PM

Boston Brahmin, do you begin all of your postings with ad hominem attacks on the entire readership? Some sort of nuanced manner of winning hearts and minds and respect?

Thanks for your input. I'd go back to mny trailer, if I lived in one and chew some baccy, if I chewed it.

Well, choke and die, fuck you very much.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at August 7, 2004 at 12:27 PM

Dear Boston Brahmin:

You write, "Bush's goals in Iraq were good and just, but the execution has been unforgivably incompetent." On the contrary, the execution was excellent, in many ways brilliant. See John Keegan's "The Iraq War" for details. Remember the pre-war jeremiads - about Stalingrad on the Euphrates and the rest of it? None of it happened, in part to good luck, which (as Napoleon reminds us) is the residue of good planning. So, it wasn't perfect; some developments caught the administratio off guard: well, the Battle of the Bulge caught FDR with his pants down, but nobody downplays the brilliance of his victory.

You write: "Bush is probably intelligent, but certainly incurious. He's blown a budget surplus in ways that would upset any good market economist." The budget surplus was hardly blown. Most of it never existed in the first place. The "surplus" consisted of projections based on a wildly inflated stock market (and wildly inflated capital gains revenues). And don't forget, a war broke out in the meantime, which tends to put a crimp in the budget as well.

You write: "Kerry seems intelligent and decent. The man is a war hero. He is a distinguished legislator and would probably be a fine president." Intelligent perhaps, though his writings and speeches do nothing to reinforce that assertion. Decent, I wouldn't know - I've never met the man. Distinguished legislator? Give me a break. Name one major piece of legislation that he's guided through the Senate. As for his voting record, he has a solid record of voting against program, both in intelligence and in the military, that give us any chance of winning this war.

"Probably a fine president"? I doubt it. I would feel better about his fitness to be chief executive if he'd run so much as a hot-dog stand in his life. Experience as a legislator often leaves a person particularly badly prepared to assume executive office - here, the American system differs significantly from the British, and probably to its detrement. When you look at American presidents, you find that nearly all of the successful ones have some sort of executive experience, usually as state governors; the last man to go directly from Congress was the original JFK, the guy who brought us the Bay of Pigs, the Cuban Missile Crisis, the overthrow of President Diem (and our involvement in Vietnam), and the overthrow of the government of Iraq by the Ba'athist Party. Hardly a distinguished record. My guess is that our JFK, would be similarly vascillating between macho fury and pusillanimity.

I hope I'm wrong - it wouldn't be the first time that I've been surprised. Time will tell.

Thanks for the post. Regards ...

Posted by: Brown Line at August 7, 2004 at 12:54 PM

"Doesn't sound like he watched a replay to me. Nor does it sound vague; note the details of his actions. And this was over 2 years in the past at the time of the interview."

He doesn't say either way if he saw it live or on a replay, the "details" are far from clear on this point, and the context doesn't favor one explanation over the other - so "40 minutes" is a matter of speculation.

Posted by: MaB at August 7, 2004 at 01:10 PM

Because a true liberal/libertarian believes in freedom of the factors of production, including people and their labour.

Actually, only a minority of self-identified libertarians believe that, in my experience; a free movement of all people to and from anywhere is generally seen as a rather anarcho-capitalist notion. Not to mention that you've got brothers in arms among the far-left believers in transnationalism on that point. Why you expected to find such sentiments on a site that according to you represents "the traditional conservative side of Australian politics", that's rather beyond me. But I guess that's why you threw in that nugget about those being the opinions of "true" liberals and libertarians. Thanks for the Orwellian attempt at redefining terms.

Incidentally, you appear to have missed all the protectionist rhetoric coming from that "fine president" John Kerry and his veep running mate.

And yeah, ditto what Steve said about your introductory remarks. Are you by chance related to "bemused spectator"?

Posted by: PW at August 7, 2004 at 01:18 PM

Wow! This is easy! I'm gonna make a way-cool movie!

"Independence Day" already had a President jump into a fighter. ;-)

Posted by: Patrick Chester at August 7, 2004 at 01:18 PM

for all the ausies's here,i hope you get to see
the new flick coming,spread the word,and when it
is here and done,tim will know about it from me.
no,i am not a producer on the film. just spreading
the word.
click on filmmakers journey.........
screw john kerry on the 7 fucking whatever.....

Posted by: andrea/minnesota at August 7, 2004 at 01:30 PM

MaB said:

"He doesn't say either way if he saw it live or on a replay, the "details" are far from clear on this point, and the context doesn't favor one explanation over the other - so "40 minutes" is a matter of speculation. "

Wow! Nice job of answer deflection! You don't like it, so the analysis is wrong. OK, well, it's clear you aren't going to accept any possibility that Kerry might be have a problem here.

But I will point out that Kerry said he sat in stunned silence. I also conceded you 33 minutes, putting him on the same level as Bush (7 minutes).

It's a small point, but very symbolic. And Kerry wasn't even reading a book to children.

You might think about that for a minute, before you blow it off as well.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 7, 2004 at 01:30 PM

Brown Line: thanks for the civil and considered reply. You are a decent person. On Iraq, I think it is fair to say they relied far too much on charlatans like Chalabi, and vastly underestimated the cost in US lives and $. It might still succeed (I hope it does) but better handling of the first few weeks after the military victory would have improved the chance of that, don't you think?

On the budget surplus - you're wrong. The money was already in the bank, in fact they dabbled with the idea of investing it in the equity market (Skub doesn't know what that is).

On Kerry, I will take your word on it for now, if you promise to think hard and honestly about the guy and what sort of president he might be. I don't think executive experience guarantees success in the presidency. You cite JFK, probably rightly but, equally, I could cite Nixon and Carter (former VP and governor, respectively) as failed presidents, and Truman as a wild success.

Steve Skub-butt: accusing me of an ad hominem attack and then saying "choke and die, fuck you very much" counts as inconsistency in my book. Your spelling errors and swift resort to abuse suggest to me a feeble, troubled mind. Chewing tobacco, fucking your sister, playing the harmonica through your clacker - take your pick. I don't care. But don't pretend you're anything but a yammering clown.

Posted by: Boston Brahmin at August 7, 2004 at 01:36 PM

eyes ageein' wif pw un brown line.
eyes got mose a wut thays sayin.Wus thaat bostin fella pickin on me.eyes sure as hale hope nut.who saays only smart folks gotta a rights tu post.I wun some respek ya here.eyes can ave some piniuons toooo ya nose.

Posted by: gubbaboy at August 7, 2004 at 01:39 PM

PW, I don't know who bemused spectator is. It isn't me. Why would I switch handles?

I take your point on freedom of movement. Hardly anyone supports it these days. Incidentally, isn't it strange that around 100 years ago this wasn't an issue? 60 million people migrated in the few decades until 1923 (when the US began to restrict immigration) and it was largely seen as positive. I guess what I should have said is that liberals should revisit this issue, because freedom of movement should be encouraged by those of us who support all sorts of freedoms, political and economic.

Sure, Kerry is playing populist on econ policy. You are right, and it is nuts. But Bush slapped tariffs on steel imports for political reasons, too. I suppose he did it for the same that Kerry does it now. What do you think?

Posted by: Boston Brahmin at August 7, 2004 at 01:45 PM

"Reading a story to kids is a good way to check your shit"
Personally, Dave S.; I just give a sample to the doctor.

Posted by: try hard pj at August 7, 2004 at 01:46 PM


Posted by: Boston Brahmin at August 7, 2004 at 01:48 PM


Posted by: andrea/minnesota at August 7, 2004 at 02:13 PM

I have no doubt Mr. Kerry would have acted immediately during those seven having the French ambassador's phone number on speed dial. The French anbassador could immediately inform the President of the United States how and to whom he should apologize insuring no time wasted. Crisis solved with no quaqmire!

Posted by: Jeffe at August 7, 2004 at 02:29 PM

Starbucks can kiss my ass.

Whenever I go in there to buy a simple cup of coffee, they expect me to participate in the “Starbucks Experience”. And if I order my coffee “wrong”, I get corrected by some minimum-wage-twit who couldn’t articulate their way home.

They don’t sell their coffees in Small, Medium or Large. NOOOOO! They have some pretentious bullshit names like Tall (which is small), Grande and Venti. WTF? Venti is not even a word – it is a Starbucks word – look closely at the menu, they have the word Venti trademarked! They made up the fucking word! And then they train their staff to not respond to normal words like, “I would like a small cup of coffee.”

They ask me, “You mean a Tall?”

Let me see – I’m looking at three cups: a short one, a medium one and a tall one. I don’t want the tall one, I didn't bring that much money – I want the short fucker! Read my fucking lips: IT IS NOT TALL, IT IS SHORT! Goddamn – no wonder the poor bastards who work at Starbucks are dyslexic.

I can see it now – guys, let’s use the Starbucks method for sizing up our cocks. Here, some poor guy has the shortest one, but we will call it the Long cock. Then someone with a medium-sized cock is now Mondo and the guy with the big honker gets to call it Bando. That's right - Bando. I made up that word and you have to use it or I will ignore you. And every woman/man can take pleasure in knowing that her/his man is at least Long.

And what is with these other Starbucks code words, like “With Room” or “Extra Shot”? How fucking pretentious is that? I even notice Starbucks Snobs in line practicing their order so they can whiz through all the special vernacular so, are you ready for this, they can order a cup of coffee.

I would go on, but I am getting hungry. I’m heading over to the local Wendy's to get my double cheeseburger cooked Animal Style. Later.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 03:39 PM

Upon stepping into the office this morning, I had two different people remind me what day it is. “It’s Friday” they spouted, as if they had just unveiled some hidden truth about life……no shit it’s Friday, believe it or not I have a vague understanding of the passing of time, and keep myself moderately aware of what day in the week it is. But thanks anyway, lest I forgot and had the horrible misfortune of thinking it was Thursday. Could you imagine? The horror.

So what does Friday really mean? Why do people feel the need to tell you what day it is? I don’t recall many occasions where an excited employee nudged me with a pointy elbow to remind that it was, in fact, Tuesday. “Dude, it’s Tuesday, sweet.” Well, the reason is most of us hate our jobs, and Friday is our welcome respite from the soul shitting grind that is the working week. And what do most of us do on a Friday night? Drink. Self-medicate. Salute ourselves for another listless week by flooding our central nervous system with what is essentially poison. Before you think me some finger pointing parade rainer, please know that I love, love the poison.

So we drink, letting our horrid memories of pointless meetings, inane office banter, the sound of the printer spitting out the dead carcasses of our beloved, oxygen giving trees just so everyone in the office can read yet another idiotic memo from the CEO reminding us all of the importance of “hammering the phones” (this ass-clown refuses, refuses to email the memos, declaring that it’s much more “personal” when it’s tangible, in your hand, and you’re reading it. Note to cock-smoke, no one reads them anyway, you’d have a better shot at getting us to look at a feces-smeared scrap of notebook paper and sticking that on our desks, you raging, insufferable, overpaid mental midget.) By the way, why couldn’t someone have told me that the phone would be such a huge part of corporate life? I don’t remember hearing in college “by the way, 89% of you will make a living by incessantly calling uninterested parties via the telephone and trying like holy hell to get them to purchase something you yourself don’t even understand or believe in, enjoy, you’re doing yeoman work!” So, we drink, we drink to wash it all away, to silence the demons that fester in our skulls Monday through Friday, that feed off our collective apathy as we whither away in front of the true idiot box (the computer has officially taken over the T.V as the single most contributing factor in the decline of modern civilization, causing at the very least eye damage, and the worst, total and complete mental breakdowns. If Google’s pop-up blocker didn’t come around, I’d be serving 25 to life right now for some sort of reprehensible crime). So we drink, we drink to forget and to forgive. To forget the past 5 days, and forgive ourselves for what we’re about to do in the next two. To forgive ourselves for not becoming what we always dreamed. To forgive ourselves the rampant complacency that has taken a hold of us as we watch our lives slip away, one company-wide email at a time.

So we drink. Like rabbits fuck, we drink, from close of business to close of bar, we imbibe enough alcohol in one sitting in the vein, fruitless attempt to carve out just a smidgen of fun in an this suddenly barren, bleak, pale existence we call our lives.

Okay, I think I’m getting a bit too depressing. It’s Friday after all, as I was just reminded by Kelly, our sales engineer, as I was typing this. Actually, I should be clearer, she said, “Hey hun, T.G.I.F, right?” I should have replied “L.O.L Kelly, hopefully we both get a little T.L.C tonight, oh, B.T.W, fuck off.”

Kelly’s a nice girl; I should take this out on her.

So we drink. Democrats waiver, we drink; we drink more than Causeway Street smells. We drink more than the T-ride to Chinatown blows. We drink more than Ted Kennedy’s third liver could ever hope to possibly expunge. We drink because we can. We drink because we must.

Now of course, there are some of you out there who like their jobs. A few who dare use the word “love.” But you’re not reading this, because you’re busy doing what you enjoy, not scouring Tim's site for something to rave about.

We drink because Katie, our manager, is so insecure she actually makes breathing awkward.

We drink because Bruce, the VP of being a incredible ass-face (and Biz-Dev) insists upon wearing enough cologne to the point where lighting a match anywhere near him is potentially life threatening.

We drink because Michael, the homophobic advertising guy, gets all red in the face if you call him “Mike.” So of course, we call him Mike often, cutting off the “e” at the end to emphasize the point that we’re really, really enjoying it.

We drink because if we have to endure one more Friday afternoon meeting, we might just projectile vomit in Kevin’s glandular, gnome like face. Just because you don’t have a life doesn’t mean the rest of us want to sit down at 4:45 on a Friday to discuss the company’s direction for Q3. You see Jeff’s left eye twitching? I’d give this meeting another 3 minutes before he reaches across the table and pulls one of your ears off, Kev. The man’s in a custody battle for his children and you’re taking time away from his weekend with them because you’re a selfish, horrible man. And if Kevin does blow, you can bet your ass Mitch, the Northeast sales manager will. I swear that guy starts off cooking some chicken by biting their fucking heads off. Do you hear his unending finger tapping on the faux-marble table? Notice how the pace quickens every few minutes? Well Kev, you’ve got a few more seconds of being a bullshit blowhard until Mitch pulls your heart of your fucking chest.

We drink because there’s no such thing as a good week of work.

We drink because if Jessica doesn’t say, “this is a mission critical decision” at least 4 times a week, it means she was out sick three days. Jessica, it’s an office supply order for Staples, how in HOLY HELL is that mission critical? Do you even know what mission critical means? Do you? You’re the office manager, not the board chairman, the phrase “mission critical” should never, EVER come out of your mouth. It’s a stapler, not a funding request, chill the fuck out.

We drink because there is no such thing as a uni-sex bathroom. It’s a girl’s bathroom people. You wonder why us guys leave the office at least twice to three times a day, not including lunch? It’s because we have to shit, and we can’t very well shit in that veritable Globe Theatre of a restroom, where every sound is amplified ten fold. The one time I just had to go (note to Jessica, now that was a mission critical decision) and simply couldn’t make it to the hotel across the street (those people must have caught on that I’m not staying there, considering they see me every fucking day) I took a shit in the uni-sex bathroom, and what ensued was an anal-philharmonic, led by yours truly, in which the entire office was privy to every fart, grunt, and bowel-related sound effect I had to offer. I felt like taking a bow when I got out, possibly chugging some coffee and going in for an encore. So no, it’s not uni-sex, it’s a girl’s room. You might as well stick a huge tampon on the door with a note reading “No Y Chromosomes allowed.” Oh, and Regina…I salute your utter shamelessness when it comes to shitting. I’ve never, ever seen a women carry the paper under arm when she walks into the bathroom. Bra-fucking-O my girl. Truly, classic stuff.

We drink because we know Ted’s gay, the whole office knows Ted’s gay, Ted’s friends and family know Ted’s gay, and we’re pretty sure at this point Ted must be vaguely aware he’s gay, yet he still insists upon talking about all the “hot ass” he “tags” over the weekend. Note to Ted, it’s not working amigo, when you can recite more show tunes than Nancy, who worked on Broadway in Manhattan for 4 years, well, it’s time to take the jaws of life to that closet door and step out into the world the way you were intended. Thing is Ted, everyone likes you, you’re good people, and coming out won’t change that, it will simply save us from the intensely awkward experience of suffering through one of your bullshit “she was so hot and then we did this and that” stories. How come we never see this girls Ted? How come they never call, never email, and what’s that stain on your shirt? It doesn’t look like mayo.

We drink because we all know that “lunch and learn” really means “this will be the worst lunch you’ll have all week” as we’re forced to share low-rent burrito’s at Chipotle’s and listen to some hired-gun of a sales guy tell us all how we have to “want it” more than the other guy. Hey Chet, this is sales, not rugby, now fuck off.

We drink because Amanda in finance is hot, and Tom in HR thinks he’s going to bang her, and as God in heaven is my witness, if he does I will completely shut down and cry myself to sleep, because Tom in HR is quite possibly a larger d-bag than Kevin, and should he bed Amanda, well, then, nothing is right in the world. We drink because we’re afraid that might happen, and we drink because we’re too afraid to talk to Amanda, save for the pathetic “warm today” comment we threw at her on Tuesday. No shit it’s warm today, she too must come from outside like the rest of us, it’s not as if she wakes up, showers, than steps in her transporter and beams herself to work. She goes outside too, you fuck. And by you, I mean me.

We drink because we’re almost positive Brett and Stu are get stoned at lunch, and we’re pissed they haven’t invited us along yet.

We drink because the last time someone said something funny at work it was completely unintentional, and it revolved around a Freudian slip when Kev, at the end of one of his marathon Friday meetings, was trying to answer Mitch’s constant interjections over our marketing budget but also trying to keep Brian quiet and ended up trying to speak to them both at the same time, calling Mitch “Bitch”. Hilarious. The fact that Kev survived that meeting is a testament to the fact that he’s like a cockroach, and could survive anything. A nuclear holocaust ensues, we’re all dead…and there will be Kevin, holding court in a Friday afternoon meeting with three charred corpses and half a human head, wondering aloud “where everybody is?”

We drink because calling our work weekend in Reno a “retreat” is an oxymoron. It’s not a retreat, it’s an assault, an assault on everything we hold dear ... how DARE you ask me to give up a weekend to go to a conference with the whole company in Reno. I’d rather eat Kevin’s shit. Okay, that’s a little too far. I’d rather throw shit at Kevin. Actually, come to think about, throwing shit at Kevin would be kinda high on my list of things to do over a weekend.

We drink because Shelly has now tried to arrange four different happy hour get togethers and the only one who shows up is Kelly and Mitch, and the only reason Mitch shows up is because he’s a drunk. We drink at some other bar, out of sadness for Shelly. And Mitch.

We drink because the thought of Monday is enough to make us cry.

And finally, we drink because in the end, when it’s all said and done, we have much to celebrate. We are lucky enough to have the luxury of bitching about corporate jobs and cubes and the bullshit office when you consider the state of affairs for most of this planet’s inhabitants, every day a true struggle, food and a roof over their heads never a certainty, but rather something they strive for. We drink because in the end, we’re lucky, spoiled, pampered brats, we know it.

We drink because we can.

We drink because we have to.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 03:47 PM

Boston Brahmin:

On Iraq, I think it is fair to say they ... vastly underestimated the cost in US lives and $.

Actually, there were preparations for thousands of US dead in the initial invasion alone.

What I think was underestimated was the level and/or the duration of insurgency after military victory, and maybe the level of Iranian support for that insurgency. I don't think Bush expected to have to keep troop levels this high for this long.

It might still succeed (I hope it does) but better handling of the first few weeks after the military victory would have improved the chance of that, don't you think?

I don't think better handling was possible given the resources available. It's easy to point out mistakes and miscalculations, but in comparison, the first few weeks after the invasion of Iraq went better than those in the occupations of either Germany or Japan, or for that matter, the South after the Civil War, which was a botched job we're still paying for.

Bush didn't get it perfect, nobody ever has, but as far as occupying a nation goes, I think he's done better than anyone else in history.

Posted by: tom beta 2 at August 7, 2004 at 03:50 PM

Considering I can't very well speak to any of my co-workers on any level resembling human-to-human communication (an example would be this morning, when I asked my boss if she ever got around to getting new head phones for her IPod, and she responded, and I quote "have you finished filing the 03' invoices?"...which created an awkward moment of "did she hear me?", which I finally gave up on and simply, sheepishly, responded "no", and my reward for that answer was a facial expression on her part that seemed more appropriate after hearing "I'm sorry, it's terminal" rather than the realization that those year-old invoices, as mission critical as their filing is, are still, shame of all shames, unfiled) So, with all this in mind,I'm going to apologize to all of you wonderful fellow cube-rats via the comments section here on Tim's site (I should apologize in advance to Tim for wasting his bandwith, but I won't ... although he'll probably ban me from his site) Believe me, if I thought actual "these are real words coming out of my mouth that combine to make a sentence or two which in turn I'm hoping translates into actual communication so therefore you respond in kind, with something pertinent to what I've just said", I'd do it that way, but, per my example above, clearly that's not the case. Oh, and to Susan, in accounts payable, disregard this posting, I'm not sorry for anything I've said and/or done to you. Yes, it was me who changed the "n" and "m" keys on your keyboard, resulting in that one hilarious email you sent out that read something like "Great mews, the mew narketing plam we have inplenetd has beem..." I mean, fucking fantastic Susan. The look on your face when I said "you should really use spell check before you hit send" was priceless. All I got was a breathless "I'm a terrific speller" followed by you wallowing in your cube with the "someone will die for this" look on your face. And yes, I told everyone about it prior to your company-wide email (consider it payback for your meaningless, pointless, "please pay attention to me" emails you send to everyone! I'm not the only one who feels like vomiting every time I see your name in my inbox, so, consider what happened redemption, for everyone, done by me, to you)

Okay, on to the apologies:

Bob, in engineering: Dude, my bad. Honestly, I thought she was just some college buddy, not your girlfriend. When I said to Thomas, in Finance, upon seeing your GF walking into your cube, "you think she had ankles when she was born?" I was not only joking, but also test-driving a really bad pun I had heard early in the week. Seriously, it could have been anyone ... had Mary, from pre-sales, who we all know has a rockin' bod, I would have said the same thing, simply because I wanted to see how the joke tested. Poor, by the way, Thomas barely lifted an eyebrow. Regardless, my bad, no harm intended. Your girlfriend is cute, really.

To Sharon, in HR: First off, what kind of idiot pisses in the HR pool? Me, that's who. I have the gall to joke around with a woman who has access to my HMO, dental, and paychecks? For that reason alone, you should know I meant nothing by my comment last Tuesday. I don't even know where it came from, and it certainly wasn't meant to be mean. You looked nice, I thought I'd be cute with my "hey, I heard green is the new pink, so good for you" comment, regarding your green skirt and off green and white blouse. Honestly, you looked good. But, with my well-earned reputation of being a heartless prick, you assumed I was mocking the green. Honestly though, isn't that what people are saying now in fashion mags, that green is the new pink? And am I the only one who wonders how any color can "be" a new version of another color? Wouldn't pink, in fact, be the new pink? Or at least the old pink? And what's with "black never goes out of style?" Why does black get off so easy? I mean, I agree that black looks good, but still, how the hell do you think that makes yellow feel? Oh, right, they're all just fucking colors ... reminding me of my original point, that one color, as absurd as this may sound, is actually just that color and that color alone. If green really was the new pink, than what's pink? The old blue? You get my point. Regardless, sorry Sharon. My foot, my mouth, they're look college roommates who still live together when they're 34.

To Max, in Biz-Dev: What can I say, the name "Max" is odd to me. I took it too far, my bad.

To Dennis, also in Biz-Dev: We should probably just stop pretending we like each other. It's getting really awkward. I'm sorry for continuing the charade, and I promise I'll stop if you stop.

To Vijay, in Marketing: I know you're not related to the golfer Vijay Singh. I know me saying you are is not only a tad racist (all Fijians are the same, etc) but also just stupid, considering people's relations are not measured by their first names, but rather their last. What can I say, you've got the same first name and look like him. And yes, I admit it, the "he's entering the back nine" joke every time you walk into the bathroom is getting old. (although Carl, also from Marketing as you know, absolutley loves it.)

To Heather, the secretary: I'm just sorry you're married. You're funny, you're sweet, you're witty. Why are you our secretary again? You should be so much more ... like my wife. But you're not. Good for you Steve, she's a great girl. (asshole).

To Mitty, VP of something or other: You don't know this, but I was supposed to be your secret Santa last year, but refused to play along, didn't show to the company party, and thus, you got nothing. Sorry. Keep up the good work. Whatever it is you do.

And finally, to Larry, our CE-motherfucking O: I'm sorry you hired me, i've spent the last 4 hours on, Instapundit, National Review, Blair's site, back to, and finally, I nodded off in the bathroom for 10 to 20 minutes. I'm a horrible employee. Horrible.

The slate is clean.

Posted by: Bill in Boston at August 7, 2004 at 03:55 PM

Not much up on what's going on in OZ these days, but very glad your PM (Howard) is a good man, and standing beside us in Iraq. Thank you. Unlike many Americans, I know you were beside us in Vietnam, too - I worked just down the hall from the craziest bunch of Aussies that ever drank beer - a truly great bunch of guys. Thank you for being THERE, too.

As for Bush and Kerry: I'm a Vietnam vet - not just a "Vietnam Era" veteran, but one who served in that steamy, hot, sweaty, and often scary nation. Although I wore a "blue suit" (US Air Force), on at least one occasion I was in a position to be shot at, and forced to shoot back. No Silver Star, no Purple Heart, but definitely the Order of the Puckered Spincter, with clusters.

I was assigned to, and worked for, the 12th Reconnaissance Intelligence Technical Squadron. We did much of the imagery intelligence work for all of Southeast Asia. There wasn't much about the War we didn't see, every day. I was in Vietnam from October, 1970, through October, 1971 - a year "tour". I saw no attrocities. The only attrocity I ever heard about was My Lai, and Lt. Calley. There were many, many stupid things that happened, but no large-scale attrocities, no "rapes, murders, villages destroyed, and animals killed on a daily basis". John Kerry lied. He slandered me and all my fellow soldiers who served. He did it deliberately in order to promote a personal political career and a personal political agenda. I can never, ever vote for him, nor accept him as "just another politician". He is a fraud and a thief. He's stolen my good name, and attempted to steal my honor. He should be hounded from this nation, not allowed to run for its highest office.

As for what happened on 9/11: I, too, was stunned by what happened. When I realized that the two jets striking the Twin Towers in Washington, DC, was just part of what was taking place, I went downstairs to my office, and sent an email to the Pentagon, volunteering to be recalled to active duty (I'm a retired Noncommissioned officer). I am still willing to return to active duty, and to serve, to the best of my ability, in whatever capacity my country might need me. I'm 57 years old, and disabled. I'm pretty sure I'll have to have surgery again on my neck, and another two disks removed and my neck fused at two more levels, but I'll put that off, and go back tomorrow, if I'm called. I'm willing to go to Iraq, or anywhere else my country needs me. I know at least 100 other Viet vets that feel the same way - because we understand that it's not just a war, but our very way of life that's at stake. We think George Bush will work to protect that. We're not sure John Kerry even understands the question.

Posted by: Old Patriot at August 7, 2004 at 04:14 PM


I didn't read this post before I read it. Therefore I didn't know any of it before I didn't. Therefore I ate corn in Aiowa (that's how they spell it, isn't it?) before I didn't. Or if I did, I never spelled it before I ate it, which I also didn't know about. So before you go any further, Tim, just know my VP candidate is a lawyer and he knows how to sue. Sue! I didn't know that before I selected him, but I didn't select him because I voted not to select him before I did.

Just so there's no confusion.... Bush Lied!!!!

I think he lied about corn today. NO!!!! In Vietnam, we were a gang of brothers, not like these bastard coalition members in Iraq. We were a gang. No! No wait! We were a band of brothers. We were a band before Bush lied and made us a band. We were never a gang. Nor were we ever an elitist group led by me. Elitists eating corn? How on earth?

Posted by: -Ed. at August 7, 2004 at 04:24 PM

Boston Brahmin:

When members of my family arrived in Boston, the Brahmins tried to deny them employment. But, I don't hold that against anyone as we've done very well since 1899.

I guess with a nick like Boston Brahmin I should expect the prejudice Bostonians have associated with that group. So I'm not too surprised you have judged a group of people on a blog as you have.

You were so nice and complimentary to say:

".. shrieking, backy-chewing trailor-trash ranting about John Kerry, the insignificant Margo Kingston and that phony but equally unimportant Phatty Adams..Most of what goes on here now is a mimeograph of the NRA, Red State bilge pumped out over here every day."

Plenty of non-trailer trash people in Kerry's home state rant about him. It's because we've known the guy for 20 years and realize what a huge mistake it would be for him to be elected president.

I come from a long line of old-style Liberal Democrats. Many in my family were, and are, union members. Some of my relatives volunteered to help JFK (the REAL JFK) get elected locally and nationally. There is not one stereotypical NRA type in my family. (Although members of my family have hunted and do own guns.)

I would be hard pressed to try and put the people who post here into one neat political box. I also don't see anyone spouting any sort of party line, talking points, or parroting any one group. (Except for the trolls.)

There is levity. People poking fun and deflating some of the pompous windbags who think they know so much. Perhaps it's difficult to see the intelligence and reasoning of many posters because of the levity. I suggest you look at the archives.

Intelligent people can be against Kerry. They can also look at Margo and Adams and have quite a good time poking holes in their latest scribblings.

"Why just the cheering for W? There are enough of that around and, frankly, with a Google ranking of 53,000, your efforts are hardly likely to affect anything much in the US."

Why Bush? Bush is imperfect. I don't agree with him on all things and he has made, what appear to me to be, mistakes. However, I'm a ONE ISSUE person this year. First time I've ever been a one issue voter. I want Bush because I don't trust Kerry to handle the War On Terror.

People post to blogs based on ratings? Who knew?
I thought people posted on blogs because the blog was interesting. It never crossed my mind that I could influence the US voting public by posting here. Heck, I never thought to influence the Australian voting public. I just post because it's interesting.

Well, gotta go and chew my 'backy in the trailor park.

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 7, 2004 at 04:34 PM

But, but... we all know what he REALLY would have done!

Posted by: Spiny Norman at August 7, 2004 at 04:43 PM

Old Patriot, I saw a lot of your kind that day. I work in a VA Hospital, and I saw the eyes of our patients. If someone had offered them a chance to go, no one who saw their faces could have doubted that, to a man, they would have dragged themselves out of bed and gone. In a very fortunate life, I've never seen such a literally deadly serious expression on anyone's face. And they all had it. I salute you, and them.

Posted by: Colin MacDougall at August 7, 2004 at 04:53 PM

Old Patriot:

Thank you, and all the others, for your service. It is appreciated.

"John Kerry lied. He slandered me and all my fellow soldiers who served."

I missed Vietnam by about a year (finishing college when it ended). Many of my cousins were in Vietnam. One of them sustained a very bad spinal injury and is in a wheelchair today.

They also dislike Kerry for the same reasons you gave. He painted them all as some sort of monster baby killers. The public spit on the vets when they returned home because of what people like Kerry said happened in Vietnam. I'm not blaming *just* Kerry, but he certainly helped contribute to the public's low opinion of the vets.

It's not surprising to see a group of vets organizing to tell their story of what they observed. How Kerry is not telling the truth, from their observations, about what happened. The Kerry people must be in a panic as to how best to shut these guys up. They won't be shut up though. They have 30-40 years of frustration and anger ready to vent.

It isn't about Bush for them, it's about how they feel Kerry stabbed them all in the back.

Some people don't seem to understand this and believe it's just politics. It isn't politics. It's deep and personal.

It's good these men finally have a chance to tell their side of the story. It's about time the public heard the truth.

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 7, 2004 at 05:06 PM

I don't any of you have defended Bush. He *did* show his true colors on 9/11. The happiness of a roomful of students is secondary. Perhaps it's not nice that he should bring this up, and perhaps it doesn't jibe with his other comment. It would be hard for anyone to say how they would be different from Bush without saying negative things about him. Aren't conservatives supposed to be in favor of personal achievement? So why support Bush? He's in the top 0.001% of the elite in the US, and he didn't parlay this into any kind of personal success. Would you hire him to run your business? Be honest.

Posted by: Sam Spade at August 7, 2004 at 05:06 PM

"So why support Bush? He's in the top 0.001% of the elite in the US, and he didn't parlay this into any kind of personal success. Would you hire him to run your business? Be honest."

I'm not a conservative, but I'll play.

I could substitute Kerry and ask the same question.

As for what Bush has achieved, there is at least one post (above) that has a partial list. It's rather lengthy. I honestly fail to see how Bush can be called a non-achiever.

Post a list of what Kerry has achieved in his 20 years of public service. What legislation has he *personally* championed that is now law?

I would trust Bush any day over Kerry to run my business. (Seriously.)

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 7, 2004 at 05:18 PM

Christ on a crutch, Brahmin, where is your head? Are you supposed to be humorous? You don't know me, you don't know any of us - you hope. So hide yourself behind the anonymity of the internet and snipe and shot and trashtalk all you want. Bet five bucks you're too smart to speak to an actual person the way you post.

Because if you did you'd be picking your teeth out of your own shit.

Which you probably eat when you're not munching on your momma's shit. Ha ha, snort, right back atcha. Having fun yet?

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at August 7, 2004 at 05:54 PM

In a time of a national emergency, such as 9/11, the President is under the direct orders of the SS. In fact if you read the 9/11 report they spell it out quite clearly. Bush was told by the SS to continue with the school kids as SS determined where to go and how to get there; Cheney was essentially picked up and shuffled off to a safe room - literally picked up by SS.

But let Kerry use Mikhail Moore's idiotic points to sway the Bush is Hitler crowd. I'm sure the Midwest and South will be very impressed. Hell now that Kerry has LA, NYC and Boston locked up he might as well stop campaigning.

One other thing: When the 3rd plane hit the Pentagon Rumsfeld ran in to assist the wounded. I believe he even received 2nd degree burns doing so. Kerry was right across the river...what did he do? Does anyone think Kerry wd appoint people such as the character of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice or Powell in his administration? Dean, Biden, Sharpton and McCain, yeah, no doubt, but that is as good as a Kerry cabinet as it is going to get.

Posted by: hen at August 7, 2004 at 10:18 PM

"in common with Kerry and the Dems, particularly on fiscal management."

Heh, you haven't actually read mr. K's spending proposals, I reckon? For the record: Clinton's spending record was a function of Deadlock, not of presidential fiscal restraint. Certainly, Deadlock is an argument for electing Kerry, but harldy his policy proposals.

Posted by: Döbeln at August 7, 2004 at 11:10 PM


Posted by: Jim Bob at August 7, 2004 at 11:32 PM


Posted by: Jim Bob at August 7, 2004 at 11:39 PM

Action vs. Inaction

On 6 June 1944, after General Eisenhower had set into motion the largest invasion in history the previous day, with a single order given, Hitler and Field Marshal Rommel (who was in charge of the German Defenses in France) issued several orders to meet the invasion threat, all of which turned out to be wrong and led to improper actions and, in some cases, inaction on the part of the German Army. This ultimately led to the defeat of the German Reich.

Eisenhower and President Roosevelt issued no orders that day ------- and won.

Posted by: subsunk at August 8, 2004 at 12:17 AM

Old Patriot, God bless you and your fellow veterans.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 8, 2004 at 12:55 AM

Boston Brahmin:

I don't think executive experience guarantees success in the presidency. You cite JFK, probably rightly but, equally, I could cite Nixon and Carter (former VP and governor, respectively) as failed presidents, and Truman as a wild success.

You're mis-stating the proposition, it actually is: lack of executive experience is a good predictor of failure. The first JFK was given as an example of poor performance by a President whose political experience was limited entirely to the US Senate. Thus two of your counter-examples (Nixon & Carter) are irrelevent and the third actually strengthens the point, Truman had been Vice President.

Posted by: Dean Douthat at August 8, 2004 at 01:14 AM

Left unclear is how Kerry's imagined actions would have changed the course of events During that seven minutes.

Presumably he believes that seven minutes could have been better used in signing a Presidential Proclamation condemning the WTC attacks [in true UN-like fashion], thus preventing Flight 77 from hitting the Pentagon.

Maybe he truly believes an immediate Presidential pardon issued during that critical seven minutes would have altered the mindset of those in control of Flight 93. That the islamofacists would have seen the error of their ways and safely landed the plane, rather than drilling it into the center of Pennslyvainia's rich farmland. Perhaps.

Perhaps we can all expect Kerry to suit up in his "bunny suit" again and endorse this version of Flight 77, or this version. At this point Kerry may be posting here under an assumed name. Anything is possible.

...................... Waiting for the inevitable Kerry version of a Dean scream!

Posted by: Marc at August 8, 2004 at 01:28 AM

Okay, folks -- this site is going registration-only as soon as I finish setting it up. But until it does, a few words on posting rules:

1. andrea/minnesota: hon, we know about the Michael Moore Hates America movie. Could you please stay on topic?
2. Bill in Boston: your posts have amused many here, but they are getting too long, and needless to say, they are also off topic. There is no reason for you to use another blogger's bandwidth to satisfy your creative impulses when there are so many free website hosts out there. I suggest you go to Google or your favorite search engine and type "free webhosts" or "free blogs" and start looking.
3. Boston Brahmin: you started off by insulting all the commenters here, and then have the gall to complain when you get the same treatment back. That's grounds for being banned from this site even if you hadn't hijacked this thread with the same tedious arguments all the other trolls have used.
4. All you tiny tard-trolls with your "amusing" droppings here, laugh while you can, because your droppings will be disappearing from this site as soon as I have finished my cup of coffee. Oh, and you'll be banned too.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 8, 2004 at 01:37 AM

Same here, Old Patriot. Suffice it to say that this 43-year-old man saw right through the BS that the Fondas and Kerrys were spewing out back then. They were able to fool some people, but not as many as they thought.

And Bill in Boston, you have quite a talent there buddy. If you can find a way to host a blog on some corner of your company's website, you could have the equivalent of George Costanza eating a sandwich while having sex while watching TV.

Posted by: Brent at August 8, 2004 at 02:01 AM

here's how FDR reacted to the news of Pearl Harbor being attacked:

"Alonzo Fields [White House butler]: Now, when I went upstairs, they had set up in the bedroom and they were taking communications from what was going on. And Paul Watson came out and he had this message and he says, "Mr. President, the whole damn Navy is gone. What in the hell are we going to do?" And the President and Mr. Hopkins -- he said to Mr. Hopkins, he says, "My God, my God, how did it happen?" He had his head in hands and at his desk like this. He says, "How did it happen?" He says, "Now I'll go down in history disgraced."

there's more HERE.

also included in the link is Rabin's reaction at the onset of the Six Day War.

Since Kerry isn't in the hotseat just yet, maybe he should hedge his bets...

Posted by: Glenn Bowen at August 8, 2004 at 02:22 AM

Teresa Kerry knows what to do in a crisis:

Addressing the crowd, Kerry's wife, Teresa, took a swipe at the Bush administration. "You cannot solve problems by throwing stones, and you cannot solve problems by telling lies, and you cannot solve problems by wishing ill to other people," she said. "The only way you solve problems is by holding hands and talking about it, and that's what we want to do in this campaign."

Posted by: J F Beck at August 8, 2004 at 03:43 AM

Dean: I haven't gotten around to reading the McCullough bio of Truman yet, but from what reading I do remember, I'd wager a good part of Truman's self-confidence came from his time as an artillery battery commander during WWI.

A job requiring more comprehensive management skills than commanding a small boat with a crew of only several men. It was a National Guard unit, so I suspect that Truman's command tenure was considerably longer than 4 months.

Sustained military experience in command positions can also be a possible predictor of success in executive positions in politics. The Dems would have done better to go with Wesley Clark, if their grand strategy for winning the election is to go straight at Bush's perceived strength (national security).

(I leave aside Clark's amazing political boffos, like the personal appearance with Michael Moore. Since ex-Prez Carter also did this at the convention I've been inclined to be a little more charitable towards this faux pas by Clark.

If Kerry wins it'll be interesting to see if he feels unconstrained in being much more publicly associated with Moore. What a disheartening spectacle that would be).

Posted by: Paul H. at August 8, 2004 at 05:35 AM

Paul, another aspect of commanding a National Guard -- true now, but especially so back in WWI -- is that the unit members all came from the same general area. Literally, within walking distance of the armory.

It's a good bet that most of the soldiers had grown up together, were neighbors, did business with each other, and many were likely related by blood and/or marriage.

Now, imagine taking this unit into battle, where one has to motivate the soldiers into putting themselves into harms way. Yes, they trained for war. But that final step in combat still requires firm leadership to avoid what is technically known as a "charlie foxtrot".

That Truman was able to do this under those conditions speaks well for his leadership and executive abilities.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 8, 2004 at 05:55 AM

Sometimes the best response to a stupid Kerry quote is another of Kerry's own stupid quotes:

"Sometimes truly courageous leadership means having the courage not to show any leadership."

If Bush hadn't been following SS standard operating procedures during those 7 minutes, he could always claim instead to be exercising Kerry's brand of "truly courageous leadership."

Posted by: Kevin B. at August 8, 2004 at 06:46 AM

From what I've heard from servicemembers, it is only the insecure and incompetent officer who doesn't allow his subordinates to do their jobs as a situation may require. In emergencies, leadership going off half-cocked is ineffective, sometimes counter-productive and always foolish.

Bush was right to use the few minutes that his staff and security people needed to arrange for his transportation and safe place of command and control for collecting his thoughts. Admittedly, he looked stunned, because a sudden and surreal situation had just befallen the country and his leadership. At least he was secure and smart enough not to pull an alarmist Al "I am in control here" Haig moment.

The best part of all is how genuine Bush's shock was. Not only did it belie the twisted charge that he "knew" about the plot, it reflected how the entire nation felt in those moments. Since then, he seems not to have forgotten those moments, nor what their import is, whereas Kerry and the Dems are back to business as usual. Maybe they should have taken seven minutes to absorb the calamity and its history-altering implications, as did Bush.

Posted by: c at August 8, 2004 at 08:24 AM

Bravo, c! Bravo! That's an aspect I didn't think of. Well put, indeed. Dave S. phrased it differently, but you say it better.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 8, 2004 at 09:55 AM

How about nobody even answer that comprehensive mish-mash of factoids above, so that "she" will go away? How about no rising to the bait that supporting this war is unAustralian?

Still, what curious logic. How would agreeing with Chirac and part of Europe, the sidelined part, be more "Australian"? Would agreeing with Miranda and her ilk be "independent" thought? How can Tim's incisive commentary be considered "lazy" when Miranda just lists to the left with freshman level talking points? How is Miranda's anti-Americanism anything other than really tired and unclever schtick?

Getting sucked in... I. must. stop...)

[This comment refers to one that has been removed. -- The Management.]

Posted by: Cream Kerry and Latham, too at August 8, 2004 at 12:11 PM

If only Dubya had nuked the entire Middle East, so Miranda could be happy that he took decisive action. None of that horrible alteration of plans to adapt to changing circumstances that she is so rightly disgusted by.

[This comment refers to one that has been removed. -- The Management.]

Posted by: PW at August 8, 2004 at 12:45 PM

Doesn't Tim ever get tired of sightseeing and long expensive lunches?

[This comment refers to one that has been removed. -- The Management.]

Posted by: Donnah at August 8, 2004 at 01:33 PM

Guys, the blogtroll known as Miranda Divide has had every single one of its comments removed from all current threads and its IP -- -- has been banned. DO NOT respond to anything the syphilitic cunt posts here when it gets the rotting remains of its brain to figure out how to sign on with a new IP. I will be deleting any future posts from this waste of meat until the CHANGEOVER TO THE NEW, REGISTRATION ONLY SITE.

[This comment refers to one that has been removed. -- The Management.]

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 8, 2004 at 01:39 PM

A me to bravo for C.
Perhaps that is why Howard is so committed to the war on terror .He was in the States on Sept 11.
I don't think he has fogotten Sept 11 or Bali . Latham and the Democrats are like goldfish in a bowl with a 2 second memory capacity.

Posted by: gubbaboy at August 8, 2004 at 02:23 PM

Settled into the new digs Andrea?

Posted by: gubbaboy at August 8, 2004 at 04:28 PM

c is right again. It’s my understanding that the Secret Service was scouting out methods of egress from the school. Why were they doing that? Well, it was certainly best during the surprise attacks for Bush to let them do their work. Best for everybody in the immediate vicinity.

Live Shot probably thought back on his own 40-minute paralysis & assumed that Bush’s stillness was the same kind of paralysis even though rather briefer. Another failure of imagination.

Maybe I, we, misread Live Shot. His Senate record has seemed distinguished mainly by record amounts of lobbyist money received, votes against military & intel programs, votes to raise taxes, etc. He has seemed, at least, to be a backbencher for 20 years. Before that he seemed to chime in with a chorus of liars testifying under oath before Congress to slander American servicemen in Vietman. He seemed to cozy up with Danny Ortega & played the useful idiot for him. Seemed, seemed, seemed.

Yet—if only we knew Live Shot the way those close to him know him.

How many know the ’Rat of the land?
Ever so snobbish, weary, and bland,
He’ll spin and drooone whennn cameras appear,
And how his fannns snooooze, when he is near.

They call him Flipper! Flipper! shiftier than lightning,
No one you seeee is smarter than heeee,
And we know Flipper! lives in world full of nuance,
Fighting for and ahhh-gainst you and me.

Posted by: ForNow at August 8, 2004 at 05:41 PM

The amount of ill-informed and knee-jerk hostile blather on this thread is astonishing. As has been pointed out several times already, the Secret Service took charge, plotted an alternative route to the airport, alerted Air Force One to get ready for quick takeoff and new flight plan to Omaha (SAC HQ), and sent orders to Eglin Air Force Base (Fort Walton Beach, Florida) for fighter escort of Air Force One.

All thoroughly documented in the 911 Commission report and reported as SOP on Little Green Footballs by a career and current active duty Air Force officer ("Reaganite", a sapper) assigned to Secret Service now and for the past couple of decades. I wouldn't expect Aussies or even US civilians to be familiar a priori with US Secret Service procedures but after being explained and documented a couple of times, most folks would catch on.

Kerry, by his assinine remarks, continues to demonstrate his total lack of executive experience, his unfamiliarity with security procedures and his ignorance. Clearly he hasn't "had the time" to read the 911 report just as he hadn't "had the time" to get briefed on the war situation while he found the time to attend the Whoopi Goldberg Bush bash-o-rama. This is a profoundly unserious and dangerous man.

Posted by: Dean Douthat at August 9, 2004 at 12:39 AM

?? I cant be bothered reading all this. Someone summarise this discussion up for me.

Posted by: caspian at August 9, 2004 at 01:02 AM

Caspian: no, try doing something yourself for a change. Or go back to or wherever it is they use short sentences and small words.

gubbaboy: not yet. I move towards the end of the month, depending on when the apartment is ready. (The management wants to put a new carpet in.)

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 02:05 AM

He is a distinguished legislator

No, Kerry isn't. He's a thoroughly undistinguished legislator. He has never spearheaded any legislation of significance, and he has never held a position of leadership in his party's caucus. The closest he's ever gotten to an actual accomplishment in the Senate is leading a few investigative hearings, but those didn't actually result in anything.

Posted by: Warmongering Lunatic at August 9, 2004 at 06:25 AM

Kerry could be a blind idiot savant with bad teeth and aggressive tendancies and he'd still be a better bet than the bloke in charge at the moment. I mean ... he has actually said these things ... this is not a joke:

'Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream.'

Hmmm. Where wings take dream! Inspiring.

'I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family.'

Leaving aside the bungled grammar - what the fuck would this rich daddy's boy harvard fly-boy draft dodging drunk party boy know about providing ... hell, about working at all!

'They misunderestimated me.'


HAS there been a stupider President? Hell, has there been a stupider public figure ...? How the fuck can such a stupid bastard be in charge of anything ... well ... I spose it's true when they say anyone can become President, gives even the most fucked up individuals hope ... just as long as their Daddy used to be President and his mates are in the high court and your brother rigged the ballot ... and stuff.

What a bloody dumb bastard. I mean:

'Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?'

Doesn't it matter to Republicans that their leader is such an idiot? Honestly. Doesn't it? Is he just like a ... figurehead who ... spouts the dogma, the rhetoric. I mean he sells it pretty well ... he looks like he means it, even when he's about to hit a golf shot. What he meant here though...

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

I mean ... that is gold. Solid gold.

There just cannot have been a stupider Prez.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:28 AM

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

Oh. Keep em comin big fellah.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:32 AM

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things."

No shit.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:37 AM

"I recently met with the finance minister of the Palestinian Authority, was very impressed by his grasp of finances."

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:38 AM

"First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill."

Who writes this stuff for him?

"I think war is a dangerous place."

I think war is a dangerous place.

I think ... I mean ... what a dribbler. What a bloody dribbler. And this is the peanut people want for four more years. Jesus.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:41 AM

Steve, you can breathe easy, because I'm not going to waste energy refuting your statements about President Bush's intelligence, how his speaking ability may relate to his intelligence, etc. because your "points" have already been refuted many times by many people who have spent more time thinking about this than you. My question for you is- will you PLEASE come up with something more interesting to conspiracy theorize around than the 2000 U.S. Presidential election? Not even the Democratic Party, the whiningest political party in the Western Hemisphere, is whining about that election anymore- they made political capital out of that for as long as they possibly could, but even they had to admit, sometime around September of 2001, that that well is dry. I don't know how you run elections in your neck of the woods, scooter, but ours was fairly won by George Bush and there's nothing you can do about it, so take a deep breath and EMBRACE the HORROR.

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 08:49 AM

Embrace this baby:

"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end."

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 08:55 AM

"The senator has got to understand if he's going to have - he can't have it both ways. He can't take the high horse and then claim the low road."

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:10 AM

I'm so impressed by your unique ability to continuously come up with Bush quotes out of context, because I understand how much creativity and oratorical skill it takes to keep quoting him until it magically proves your argument. Because he never corrected himself after making these gaffes. And I think you and I are the only ones who really understand that people who stumble while speaking are hopeless fools who could never be effective leaders.

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 09:13 AM

The election was won fairly? Because the Supreme Court stopped the re-count?

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:17 AM

Occasional stumble? He's borderline illiterate.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:18 AM

You're a fan of oratorical ability ... AND Dubya?

Pretty rich.

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

He is dumb. It's not his fault. Maybe he drank too much or was the runt of the litter or his mummy and daddy just loved him too much. But he is not a smart man.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:26 AM

It was Gore and the Democratic Party who challenged the fair recounts and forced more recounts, tossing out absentee ballots, etc.- My God, what have I done!? I can't believe I jumped into this argument again. Let's discuss something else with more relevance- like for example, John Kerry's fitness to be President, which is after all the topic of this thread. What are your thoughts on that?

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 09:29 AM

But hey - it's your country. You want a Prez with the following list of accomplishments, re-elect the fuck out of him. You can enjoy another four years of a Prez who has:

· Shattered record for biggest annual deficit in history;

· Set economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period;

· Set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market;

· First year in office set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history;

· After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, presided over the worst security failure in US history;

· In his first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs;

· Cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history;

· Appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history;

· Signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history;

· Presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed;

· Cut healthcare benefits for war veterans;

· Set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest a sitting American President, shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind;

· Dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history;

· First president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt;

· Presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world;

· First president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation;

· Created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States;

· Set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history;

· First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the human rights commission;

· First president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the elections monitoring board;

· All-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations;

· Biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation);

· Spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history;

· First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1);

· Took the biggest world sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history);

· With a policy of 'disengagement' created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years;

· First US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability;

· First US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than their immediate neighbor, North Korea;

· Changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts;

· Set all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling huge investments in corporations bidding for government contracts;

· Failed to fulfill his pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive';

· Failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months he has no leads and zero suspects;

· In the 18 months following the 911 attacks he successfully prevented any public investigation into the biggest security failure in the history of the United States;

· Removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history;

· Entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category straight down.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:32 AM

My thoughts on Kerry are that anyone's better than the incumbent. And I mean anyone. I'd vote for fuckin Mr.T before this clown.

Posted by: Steve at August 9, 2004 at 09:36 AM

Wow- when does the man have time to eat or sleep in between sessions of destroying the world AND losing the respect of those lovely and oh-so-fair-minded Europeans? "Presiding over" so many national and world events- What exactly do you mean by "presiding over"?
And I have some news for you about America becoming "The most resented country in the world"? I hate to destroy your beautiful vision of the people of the world dancing together as one in love and peace the moment Bush leaves office, but the most powerful nations have always been the most hated, regardless of how well or how badly they conducted themselves. Unlike you, I'm going to provide examples to back up my sweeping statements- Example: The British Empire Example: The Soviet Union Example: The Roman Empire. And I'm not done yet, but I'm sure you're already jumping to the next related topic of Bush-Bashing so that you don't have to debate one topic like a reasonable person.

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 09:53 AM

I'm speaking from an outsider's point of view.

Was he a decorated war veteran who indicated his leadership in combat operations? How did he use his abilities on Sept 11?

Was he a Congressman and as a consequence understands the meaning of standing up and being counted when a serious event unfolds? How did he use his abilities on Sept 11?

Was he a man of strong character? How did he use his abilities on Sept 11?

I can't get more basic than that.

Posted by: Lofty at August 9, 2004 at 10:00 AM

I should have mentioned I'm talking about John Kerry.

Posted by: Lofty at August 9, 2004 at 10:05 AM

And by the way, you bring up this subject- "First US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view his presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability"- like it supports your argument, when in fact it has little to do with anything we're discussing here. And you say it like it's a bad thing, which is what really puzzles me.
You also said - "First president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)"- This has little or no basis in reality, it is a fact proven by the 9/11 Commission Report that the Secret Service did what they were trained to do- they hustled the President to safety until they could ensure there was no immediate threat to his life, regardless of what he may or may not have wanted to do at that moment. You know that's true, I know it, the dog knows it, perhaps you just stuck this piece of nonsense in the middle of the list hoping it wouldn't be noticed. The proof of my statement can be found in the 9/11 Commission Report is available for anyone with an Internet connection to read at any time- some blogs, news services, commentators will even summarize it for you.

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 10:07 AM

Steve, you've posted such a great deal of information and generalization without citing any sources- are you sure you want to bring up more lists of Dubya's supposed failings and verbal gaffes, or do you want to talk about what's already on the table?

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 10:16 AM

Steve, you just won't let go the idea that George W. Bush is a moron. Okay, fine, it's your opinion, you're welcome to it.

I presume your accomplishments far outshine his, right? Where did you earn your Master's Degree? Just wondering. How many hours do you have flying fighters? Only curious. In which huge state did you win the governorship from an incumbent? Because we must conclude that your own massive brain would scoff at such puny achievements. And of course you have never stumbled on your words, to have them siezed upon by a hostile press and morally bankrupt political oppsition, have you?

No, it's obvious that your sense of worth is tied up in feeling smug about Dubya. My question is, who did you sneer at before 2000? Why don't you gve us the list of pathetic boobs who cringe at the base of your towering intellect? Don't bother listing all the posters here by name, I think we can take it for granted that we're on the list. I expect that I am, and let me assure that it's an honor, sir.

Hoping to hear of your tremendous accoplishements soon. They must he awesome, to match your demonstrated self worth.

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at August 9, 2004 at 10:17 AM

VerityKindle, it's pretty clear Steve is one of those people with poor comprehension skills. I'd like to say he's deaf and can't hear your arguments, but this medium is visual only. So that's out.

No, I can tell that Steve has poor comprehension skills because he doesn't understand that virtually every point he's making is right out of the Official Leftoid Barking Moonbat 2004 Election Guide. That means he is unable to think for himself; indeed, he can only parrot what his brethern say.

Said points have been either shown to be wrong, taken out of context, or an honest error. Please note that nowhere that Steve ever say anything postive about President Bush.

This form of argument is the standard form for the DNC in the USA -- shout negative points (valid or not) until the other person shuts up. Then the barking moonbat (i.e., Steve) "wins" the argument. That this "win" is gained by being an annoying, ignorant asshole is immaterial. The targeted segment of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy (TM) has ceased to argue is the whole point.

Censorship by idiocy, for God's sake! And cretins like Steve actually expect us to take them seriously.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 9, 2004 at 10:18 AM

Steve's got it, with his brilliant DNC/ Michael Moore talking points. Why can't the rest of us understand that Bush is a m-o-r-o-n?

For Gawd's sake, let's vote in a US Prez who's smart enough to know he should defer to the better wisdom of the UN, EU and Palestinian Authority in formulating American foreign policy.

Let's vote in a whiz who can eloquently tell us, without gaffes pleeease, why he will yield to the inexorable creep of dhimmitude upon our land, just as he knew decades ago the red menace would actually behoove the Vietnamese and Cambodians. Nicaraguans, too.

We would be unforgiveably remiss in not voting for a genius who, with polish and aplomb, would turn our economy around and into the toilet, starting with socialized benefits for everyone and his shadow.

In times of trouble, we really need an august and silver-tongued Brahmin leader who can convince us, when our jets are once again scuttled and urban skylines 'rearranged', that we have only ourselves to blame for not being sensitive enough overseas and vigilant enough in stopping Ashcroft's fascism.

Yes, America needs that certain orating genius to lead us to our downfall, and it's amazing how much of the the world is really rooting for him, too. They are too kind.

Posted by: c at August 9, 2004 at 10:24 AM

Steve's been banned. I don't allow repetitive bores to comment here.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 10:31 AM

Y'all have brought up some important points which I forgot about in the flurry of typing angrily while trying to keep track of the latest post- Steve wasn't nearly as vicious as the trolls I've seen over at Little Green Footballs, I was actually kind of hoping he'd settle on one or two things enough so that there could be a semi-discussion. It reminds me of a conversation I had the other day with a lefty who was actually quite civil, over at "Vote For Change" before they shut down the comments. We were in the middle of discussing Kerry when they shut it down- maybe for fear that the Vast Right Wing Zionist Conspiracy would infect their message board, only a day old. What a pity. Anybody else here who was in that little deathmatch? However briefly?

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 10:40 AM

Yay Andrea!!! Also for your correction, because when you said "repetitive bores" I was afraid you meant me.

And I resent the guy using my first name to blather with. He's likely to dilute the impact of my own closely reasoned carefully argued, uh... arguments. What a poopyhead, huh?

Posted by: Steve Skubinna at August 9, 2004 at 10:54 AM

This is a meta-comment which, I hope, will not get me banned by Andrea. But if so, C'est le guerre.

Please note how many times the true situation re Bush in the Florida classroom was reported and documented via, i.a., the 911 Commission report. Regardless of repeated comment postings by myself and others, the absurd blather simply blathered on completely oblivious. Also note how Kerry's absurdities on this same subject are completely ignored.

What in the world does it take to overcome such blindness? Can somebody help me out here?

Posted by: Dean Douthat at August 9, 2004 at 11:03 AM

"Occasional stumble? He's borderline illiterate"

If Steve is still reading: I don't care.
You guys just don't get it. For someone who you claim is stupid and illiterate he's done very well. I did not vote for him last time. I will vote for him this time.

So, keep droning on and on about BushHitler, BushStupid, BushOil, BushVeryBadMan, etc.. I have heard it all a million times. The only people who are receptive to this nonsense are the 'true believers' on the far left and far right. (Did you know the far left and far right both hate Bush? Getting harder to tell the two groups apart.)

The non-'true believers' seem to find this rhetoric and sloganeering as irritating as fingernails scratched across a chalkboard. If you really want to defeat Bush find something else to say.

Bush has real flaws and weaknesses. There are many things I disagree with him on. Find them and talk about how Kerry would do better. Provide facts. If you do this you may influence people to vote Kerry. Just spouting loony slogans is not going to defeat Bush. (It makes YOU look like the fool, not Bush.)

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 9, 2004 at 11:10 AM

So, Steve's commenting about Bush's intelligence (or lack of).

Yet he isn't smart enough to come up with an original idea on his own? Or even one way in which Kerry would be a superior president?

Oh, and Andrea's "correction" wasn't actually written by Andrea, but by some moron that seems to think Andrea/Tim have a responsibility to provide the inmates at the asylum with a public forum to speak their mind.

Posted by: david at August 9, 2004 at 11:27 AM


Didn't see that because I don't read "Vote for Change". However, I AM noticing an influx of anti-Bush posters on many blogs I do read. They all seem to have the same MO: hijack a thread and repeat all the nonsense we've all heard before about Bush.

I know there are always troll invasions, but it seems odd that so many boards seem to be having the same types at the same time (within the past few days). They all act and talk the same.

I'm sure many here have checked it out, but if you haven't, the SwiftVets board is interesting.

Here's the link:
Swift Boat Vets

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 9, 2004 at 11:30 AM

Thanks for the catch on the psuedo-Andrea, David. Cute e-mail address, by the way,, or Julius Streicher of Nazi Germany fame.

The ironic thing is, this blog is against anti-semitism. Too bad the troll is selectively dyslexic, and read a couple other threads here on this very topic.

Gee, their dissent must be getting crushed or something, since they can't act like whinging tape recorders, and spout their repetitive nonsense without interference.

I feel so bad about that, sniff, I just want to hug those poor people.


Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 9, 2004 at 11:48 AM

Thanks for the link- the Swift Boat Vets site is great-they state their mission right on the front page, no wishy-washy stuff.

Posted by: VerityKindle at August 9, 2004 at 12:20 PM

I always thought Bush was on the phone when the second plane hit. I thought I saw picture of this on or something like that. The scene with him being whispered to, that's when the first plane struck. Am I wrong about this?

Posted by: JohnFNWayne at August 9, 2004 at 01:06 PM

The Swift Boat Vets need all the publicity and linkage they can get. They have the dirt on Kerry, and the evidence to prove it. Naturally, the Kerry campaign and its supportive media are doing everything they can to suppress the truth and smear the witnesses.

Have a look at this detailed summary of the case. It's political dynamite.

Posted by: EvilPundit at August 9, 2004 at 01:08 PM

The person pretending to be me has had their comment deleted and their IP banned.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 01:46 PM

Guys -- do me a favor, don't respond to the trolls at all. I am going to be removing their comments as soon as I can get to them.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 01:47 PM

What's with Steve? Is DU down for fumigation or something?

Gee, just think, if Dubya only had a brain, he might have toppled THREE dictatorships by now...

Posted by: richard mcenroe at August 9, 2004 at 01:51 PM

RE: The swift boat vets.

I would also urge everyone, even Kerry supporters who can't be swayed, to check these guys out. I'm still reading pro and con about the medals and if he is unfit to command. I think it's worth everyone's time to look at the pro and con and decide for yourself.

One point that's being made by these, and other, vets that I find REALLY interesting is debunking of the testimony before congress that brought so much shame to the vets. There are documents on various web pages that show many of the testimonies were made by men that were not there and/or men that had 'borrowed' the names of those who were.

Even if you vote for Kerry, it's worth educating yourself about the truth or the NON-TRUTH that we were told about the behavior of our Vietnam Vets. Love Kerry all you want. He did go to Vietnam and nobody can take that away. Many fled the country to avoid service. He didn't. I give him credit for that.

You needn't become a Bush supporter or be against Kerry to want to know what lies may have been told about vets that are equally as honorable as Kerry.

This site has material on, and links for more info, on the testimonies given against the Vietnam Vets:

Winter Soldier

I have cousins who are following these issues very closely. They served in Vietnam and were exposed to the horrible public reaction when they returned home. For them, the issue is getting the truth out about how they, and others, behaved in Vietnam. It's not about Bush or even just Kerry.

The vets are trying to organize a march to bring more public attention to what they have to say. They are also asking for donations to help purchase ads.

Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 9, 2004 at 01:51 PM

You guys just don't get it. For someone who you claim is stupid and illiterate he's done very well. I did not vote for him last time. I will vote for him this time.

Not to mention that Steve's high-pitched shrieking probably just drove five undecided lurkers into the Bush camp. Australians like Steve can't vote in U.S. elections (as Mirander so eloquently pointed out yesterday before she was kicked out again), but they can certainly make the case for Bush's reelection, albeit unintentionally.

Of course, it's a neverending battle...I just found out the other day that a Canadian friend of mine has joined the "Bush is the real terrorist" moonbat brigade. So sad. Wonder if I'll stomach talking to her about anything serious in the future.

Posted by: PW at August 9, 2004 at 01:55 PM

My God! Steve needs to seek some professional help. I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, his level of rage,anger and hate is almost clinical. With respect to those who want to pin him down on one or two points and carry on some sort of worthwhile conversation on issues. Forget it. It's impossible. For those of you in the US, try listening to Michael Medved sometimes when he devotes whole hours and days to these kind of people. It's scary. There is no there there. They can't lock into reality. It's one talking point to the next without any intervening reality. That's why I said it almost clinical. That's also the reason why I wonder what will happen when they lose!!. If you look at some of the stuff that's out there right now, and I'm sure alot of you have, you have to be very worried. From the book indicating that GWB should be assasinated, to the ad taken out by a group in South Florida stating that Rumsfeld should be put in front of a firing squad, you really have to wonder.

Posted by: YoJimbo at August 9, 2004 at 03:34 PM

This has gone beyond Kerry - Bush. This has degenerated into anger and rage. And the worst part. Rather than repudiating these types, the Democratic Party would probably like to hire a Steve or a Miranda.

Posted by: YoJimbo at August 9, 2004 at 03:49 PM

Chris Josephson,

Re: your suspicions on the influx of trolls--One poster over at wrote that he too has detected what appears to be a concerted effort by trolls at various blogs and websites to eat up bandwidth, creating strawman arguments, non-sensical rants, hijacking threads to shift discussions, etc.

His thought is that perhaps or some other Kerry-friendly group may actually be paying these mooks.

I don't know. But I too have noticed a pronounced presence of trolls. Whether it's because of swiftboat vets, no bounce, or whatever, there does seem to be a major "get out the trolls" effort by someone.

Interesting from a cultural perspective: politically oriented 'blogs are increasingly important and the parties are getting savvy to them.

And Steve's points? I heard all that about Reagan back in college and have read worse about Adams, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, among others.

It makes me think that Bush, despite his myriad faults, is destined for greatness. No one is more surprised than me at his success and I will vote for him in November.

One last thing: I don't think this swiftvets thing is a pro-Bush thing. It's all about Viet vets getting payback for Kerry's anti-war slanders. Too bad they couldn't get their story out there earlier (I know they tried). The Dems might've been able to field a serious, viable candidate.

This race should be about ideas right now. Bush has them. Kerry does not.

There are so many awesome Democrats who should've/could've been debating the Republicans. Kerry would never make a good president even in the best of times. There's simply no there there.

Posted by: JDB at August 9, 2004 at 03:58 PM

For all you Swift Boat Vet fans. You might want to go over to Crush Kerry or via InstaPundit and see what is ready to hit the beach. The "brown book" brigades are ah, "reporting for duty". It's not about "ideas" and it's not about "truth". It's about power and rage.

Posted by: JoJimbo at August 9, 2004 at 04:11 PM

YoJimbo, I spotted Steve's stonewall almost immediately. I agree, he could be a textbook case of mental illness. But his techniques were deliberately looking for response, and he responded to people with the same methodicalness. It looked liked he had a prepared script to one side, ready for cut-and-paste.

I tend to agree that this was a troll looking to tie up bandwidth, and lower the "signal to noise ratio" on this blog. Whether "Steve" was acting independently or part of a coordinated campaign is immaterial. Andrea is correct: Do not respond to these trolls.

That's going to be difficult. I know I will have to watch myself. Steve was pretty obvious. Others are more coy, ranging from caspian (a newbie trying to find his place using the "stomp and shove" technique) to ghandi, who pretends to engage in a meaningful discussion, and then resorts to "answer deflection" or "moving the goalposts".

I will be glad when Andrea sets up registration for this blog. That won't stop all of the trolls, but at least the casual goofballs won't be dropping in.

And I agree with one thing -- the left wingers are worried. This lowering the "signal to noise ration" (AKA "shouting them down") is an old trick, right down there with provoking an incident on the picket lines with the police. That they are trying to "crush dissent" (coordinated or not) shows that.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at August 9, 2004 at 04:45 PM

As a non-US type person I find the passions regarding the Bush/Kerry qualities/failings curious on an Australian website. It seems at least from listening to speeches, that there is very little difference between them in terms of foreign policy substance. If Kerry gets in I'm sure the remote is going to be clicking when the news shows him giving a speech to..cross country skiing. I'll miss George. I'll miss him especially when he walks up to the microphone, steadfast (left foot forward/right arm back, arse out, right foot forward/left arm back...)looks straight into the camera and with unwavering conviction tries another 3 syllable word.

Posted by: carlos at August 9, 2004 at 05:40 PM

...I'll miss George...

Don't distress yourself, creep. The President will be re-elected.

Posted by: Byron_the_Aussie at August 9, 2004 at 07:33 PM

...And to top off a long procession of Trolls, here comes Yasser's cheerleader, carlos.

Salaam! I look forward to seeing you as Bush is sworn in for his second term.

I'll be the one wearing the "Boo hoo, International Left." shirt.

Posted by: Quentin George at August 9, 2004 at 07:49 PM

Carlos has been kicked off the island for that useless post.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 08:06 PM

I've removed last gandhi's comment from the previous post like I said I would, and since I simply don't have time to deflect all the stupid babies that think they are owed a soapbox I am closing all current posts to comments until I get the new system started.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 9, 2004 at 08:11 PM