Tim Blair

Unfortunately, it's a rot that touches nearly all U.S. college campuses these days.

He probably wouldn't know a fundamentalist Christian if one walked up and smote him.

I understand what Royce is talking about. Normally intelligent people have checked their intellect and judgment at the door. they are doing what they most despise in others --Intellectual dishonesty. A little bulb has clicked in their brains "the end justifies the means" They hate the President and he cannot ever ever be right about anything. Therefore, he must be destroyed. Just read M. Dowd in the NYT for an example of low caliber tabloid crap in what used to be the newspaper of record

"They are very much like fundamentalist Christians."

Donnah:
"He probably wouldn't know a fundamentalist Christian if one walked up and smote him."

You're guessing Donnah, of course, and probably badly wrong, but I'm not - just having come off my 50th HS in Minneapolis.

He's right, I found the same seeping extrusions of of semantic 'smamwah' up in Scandahoovian Land. Serves 'em right. I'm thinking that the silent ones were more to my liking, but . . .?

I'm sorry, Gerry. I'm not sure I understand your post.

I live in Oklahoma, the heartland of the Bible belt, full of "fundamentalist Christians". But many are not "fundamentalist" but Pentecostal or Charismatic. And many are Catholic...and none of them spout such nonsense...

And Oklahoma elected a Democratic Governor...it's called populism.

Unlike academics, people don't parrot stuff they hear. They have to make personal decisions all the time, and be responsible (yes there are other types, but they rarely vote...too high on Crank and meth)... Many would support Kerry, but I suspect that once the networks here actually start showing Kerry speak, they will vote for Bush. Kerry is too full of himself...but except for puff pieces and soundbites, he is rarely seen on tv. Just Bush bashing spin is seen...

he's right, in a sense, but there's a difference between fundie christians and loony lefties: the fundies feel that everyone has the ability to adopt their view, in that if you accept christ as they do you too will be saved. the liberal academics/MOOREmons, on the other hand, are quite open in their disdain for the comon man who is simply too stupid to know any better and must be forced to accept their inspired rule.

Mr. Bingley - the nastier fundies are disdainful; the better ones just pity you in the same half-smiling, half-sneering way lefties do when confronted with such benightedness. Royce is right, the far-lefties I know and the fundies I know are exactly the same, just oriented differently.

I couldn't open Royce's page, so I don't know if he gets into specifics. But the two certainly share: a refusal to accept empirical facts over their dogma; an insecurity over their dogma which make them agitated and threatened during debate; a conspiratorial worldview that sees dark forces in league behind the scenes; apocalyptic obsessions mixed with utopian fantasies; the idea that America has "gone wrong" (for the fundies, in the eyes of God; for the leftie, in the eyes of France); etc.

Why are they so similar? In the case of the States, I believe it is because they are both the philosophical descendents of the Puritans. You can see it when you read Jonathan Edwards and Cotton Mather.

I really like the idea of "smoting".

"Hi honey, what did you do today?"

"I smoted a few individual who digressed from my beliefs."

"Ohhh, that's so virile of you, come up to my Earth Mother cave structure."

There you go. The need to smote in modern man supplants the need for Vegemite.

Mr. Bingley - the nastier fundies are disdainful; the better ones just pity you in the same half-smiling, half-sneering way lefties do when confronted with such benightedness. Royce is right, the far-lefties I know and the fundies I know are exactly the same, just oriented differently.

There is one critical difference, and I grew up in the Bible belt and lived in Madison Wisconsin, lefty heaven, for 15 years, so I know what I'm talking about. Plus, I am neither left not Christian, so I don't have an axe to grind.

I've never known a committed leftist who couldn't keep their effing mouth shut about their politics and try to push you around on some level. The vast majority of Christians that I know, well, you'd never know they were Christian.

Those of you tossing the term "fundamentalist" around probably don't have the faintest idea what it means, by the way.

Dave S.
What have you been up to that has guilted up your conscience so badly?

Honestly, when was the last time a fundamentalist Christian showed up and started bothering you? How did they know to bother you?

Socailism equals Christianity? Please.

The comparison I make between most fundamentalist Christians and most lefties is their tendency (and I chose this word carefully) to have their philosophy boil down to:

"All right-thinking people ___________."

Both groups would use the power of the state to enforce their restrictive world view.

Here's an example:

Religious anti-abortionists use the argument that the woman who has the procedure is a "victim" who will regret her choice... if she ever really had a choice...

Feminist activists use the argument that a woman involved in pornography or prostitution is a "victim" who will regret her choice... if she ever really had a choice...

All that being said... given the state of the world we live in today - the war on terror... the assault on Western culture, etc. - I tend to find more common cause with the fundies.

God help me...

Here's my experience on the subject, having lived my entire life in the Bible Belt while also living in a left family.

(I had an interesting childhood, as you might guess).

Most Christian fundamentalists (the real ones, not the Sunday soldiers who were a little less, um, pious on Friday and Saturday), when turning their attentions to me, would say "You need to come to Christ; only through him will you be saved. If you don't I will still pray for you. Know that God loves all of us."

Some enjoyed the hellfire aspects more than others, but generally, there was a sense of caring and regard, even if I rejected it. I was witnessed to numerous times, and while they each made me uncomfortable, I found that if I just said "Thank you for your concern. It means a lot to me that you would take time to express your regard for me in such a way. I can't commit to what you're asking of me, but I appreciate your trying." And I really did, because I knew they meant well.

Now, the Lefties I've known ... well, that's a different story. There's a veneer of caring about The People; but it was (and is) couched in such a corrosive elitism. The Intellect is praised and favored beyond all else, with physical and spiritual exploits derided and dismissed. There's a basic hostility to the everyday lives of most people that completely belies the often-stated "concern for the common man".

My mother, when she found out I was leaning rightward, railed at me for abandoning "the little guy." This is the same little guy she'll laugh at or bitch about driving his SUV, or doing her shopping at Wal-Mart, or reading their Danielle Steele/Tom Clancy, or - gasp - going to church and, you know, believing in God. How stupid! How irrational! How ... common!

Very generally speaking, it's one group of people with sometimes irritating public behavior concealing a good heart versus a group of people exhibiting good-hearted public behavior concealing an angry, derisive soul. Both adhere to strict talking points and resistant systems of beliefs. Neither are particularly interested in questioning or reevaluating their beliefs, barring a significant shock to the system (9/11 for Lefties, public universities for fundamentalists, if they go to one). No one is more commited to a cause than a convert, of course.

Exceptions to both abound, of course.

Unlike some of the people here (I can only assume), I have actually met "fundies" -- that is, I've met fundamentalist Christians. Most of them are very nice people, hardly the condescending, "sneering" sorts Dave S. is talking about. Condescending and sneering are considered uncharitable by Christians; it's a sin to be uncharitable. Also, they long ago figured out that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Of course, there are and have always been uncharitable Christians, which this passage (scroll down for it) shows -- it also shows that certain problems we think are new have been around for a long time:

If they see a man Conformable to the Established Government, tho' he be pious, sober, and truly Religious, yet they despise and neglect him, censure him a Formalist, and without the Power of Godliness: But if a man will but revile the Established Government, and be bold against it, cry it down, and cry up the New Institution into which they are lifted, tho' the man be Covetous, Uncharitable, Hard-hearted, Proud, Impetuous, and possibly otherwise Loose in his Conversation, yet such a man shall be cherished, applauded, cried up for a Saint, a Precious Man, and Zealous for the Truth.

Hey Steve, well said! I hadn't seen your message before I posted.

I just can't pass up the opportunity to use the word "smite" when I get a chance.

Really, I got an image of the Hollywood stereotype of fundamentalist Christianity: Carrie's mother. America is full of people who are fundamentalist, yet you don't see many Piper Laurie whack jobs walking around.
So. Is this really about abortion, then? If you look at it from a standpoint of ethics, it shouldn't be much of a surprise: if people think that little babies are being murdered, what kind of folks would they be if they didn't say something about it? Catholics oppose abortion as well, and they're not fundamentalist. The Romans used to put babies out on dungheaps. That was their lifestyle choice. I confess I would find that practice objectionable as well.

As a young woman I was so embarassed at my mother and sister's going to an anti-abortion protest. Their parading their hickness and lack of sophistication about in public was insufferable.
Then on television one evening I saw an pro-abortion demonstration. The laughing and giggling women I saw on my screen really caused a profound alteration in my views.

Sorry for the long post. I try to make what I feel are short, succinct ones, but perhaps they are only cryptic.

While you're over there, don't miss the pointer to this truly horrifying article from the Hudson Review, about what EUrabians "know" about the US:

http://www.hudsonreview.com/BawerSp04.html

Stomach-turning, but enlightening.

well put steve

"I've never known a committed leftist who couldn't keep their effing mouth shut about their politics and try to push you around on some level. The vast majority of Christians that I know, well, you'd never know they were Christian."

I agree that this is the gist of it. I work for a company packed full of leftists--anti-war, anti-Bush, anti-globalization, everything is America's fault, yada yada. Their political opinions are everywhere. Their office walls are covered in Bush-as-an-Ape cartoons. There are always flyers up in the office kitchen about some demonstration or petition. Any discussion lasting longer than five minutes includes a political opinion, no matter how non sequitur. They even manage to inject politics into meetings and memos. It contrasts with my last job, where I worked in a small department with three evangelical Christians. I only knew they were evangelicals in the same way I knew how many kids they had, where they had gone to college, etc. Who knows, maybe they wanted to evangelize, but they at least had the sense to realize how inappropriate it is at work.

Steve - Very generally speaking, it's one group of people with sometimes irritating public behavior concealing a good heart versus a group of people exhibiting good-hearted public behavior concealing an angry, derisive soul.

I find myself in the strange and somewhat uncomfortable position of defending the Left.

I think that at root both Fundies and Lefties have the best of intentions. And that's the problem. Their good intentions don't scale well past the individual/family and the implementation of those intentions tend to cause real, tangible harm.

Good intentions + government force... well, you know where this is going to end up.

I DO agree that there is a significant subset of Fundies that follow the "render unto Caesar..." precept and try to personally change the world without the use of state power on its citizens.

Ah… would that there were a similar group of like-minded Lefties.

Well, at least I'm on comfortable ground again... hackin' at the Left.

But Lefties (liberals, whatever) tend to get embittered much more easily and at much less provocation than fundamentalist Christians. I think this is because Lefties are trying to improve this world and there is only so much that can be improved here. But they really do believe that they can build a Paradise on Earth -- if only the rest of stupid humanity wasn't in their way. Since this is just impossible, many leftists become embittered cranks. Christians, whatever your opinion on their belief in things unseen and unproved, are much more realistic about the physical world. (Where they fall down occasionally is in becoming too condemning of the world -- they forget its frailty and end up falling into the same error that lefties do: putting burdens on the world's shoulders it wasn't meant to bear.)

The left has a rabid hatred for all things christian, and it is only getting worse (ACLU anyone?). They think they are superior and smarter than religious people because they think they have "figured it out". They have solved "the big question" and all those people who still believe in god and a higher power are intellectual midgets who can't think for themselves. Being religious isn't progressive, being atheist is. It's chic.

RC:

>Those of you tossing the term "fundamentalist"
>around probably don't have the faintest idea what
>it means, by the way.

I take it to mean one who believes in the Bible as literal truth and history, i.e., Adam & Eve, the world created 6000 years ago in six days, etc. This is what self-identified fundamentalists have
told me are their beliefs. Is this not correct?

Doc-

>What have you been up to that has guilted up your
>conscience so badly?

That's the dumbest assumption from a post I have ever seen. So, if I agree with the premise that fundies and ultra-lefties share common characteristics, that means I feel guilty about some horrible thing I have done? You're a masterful psychoanalyst.

>Honestly, when was the last time a fundamentalist
>Christian showed up and started bothering you?

Um, I don't think any fundie has ever "showed up" and "bothered me", whatever that's supposed to mean. If I wrote something analyzing Communists, would you ask me, "Honestly, when was the last time a Communist showed up and started bothering you?" Oh, and please feel free to infer from that analogy that I am equating fundamentalists with Communists. You would be utterly wrong, but knock yourself out.

Do fundies ever annoy me, without actually "showing up"? Sure. It annoys me when they try to get creationism taught in schools. It annoyed me when I received a chain letter forwarding an Onion article about Harry Potter teaching kids to hate Jesus, then wrote the first sender to politely point out it was satire, then received a reply saying, "But the point is still valid", and a subsequent "I'll pray for your soul" when I told him that continuing to circulate it as fact when he knows it's fiction simply made him a liar. Yeah, I found that bothersome. That's two occasions, which is about twenty-eight fewer times than I have been bothered by the Post Office, so I suppose I must be projecting some deep-seated guilt about my past postal practices, as well.

>How did they know to bother you?

Your statements are utterly impenetrable. I have absolutely no fucking idea what this is supposed to mean.

>Socailism equals Christianity? Please.

Well, this proves you're an idiot with zero reading comprehension. Number one, I never said anything about Socialists. Find the word "Socialist" anywhere in my post. Or do you believe that leftist and Socialist are synonyms? (hint: they're not). Number two, I never even said "left-winger = fundamentalist Christian." I said they had identical epistemological attitudes in a DIFFERENT orientation.

If you're a fundy, you're doing a great job proving my point. If you're not, I'll simply suggest you should read things REEEEALLY SLOOOOOWLY from now on and, y'know, take five seconds or so to think about them.

Thanks Dave. I'm now a better, more informed person.

I still think you have a guilty conscience, though.

Andrea,

I'm trying (not very well, apparently…) to address how both the extreme/activist elements of both Fundies and Lefties attempt to legislate their visions of morality in the here and now. In fact, in some areas (such as pornography) actually make common cause. As a libertarian, I find both groups dangerous on a political level.

I’m not sure that I agree with you on your take that: Christians… are much more realistic about the physical world. Their religious zeal drives their fear and perversion of the scientific method. I’m sorry, anyone who believes that the world is 6,500 years old (and tries to have it added to public school science curriculum…) is a bit “reality challenged”.

Then again, you could make the same argument about Lefties and their abandonment of the scientific method for “consensus” (read that “politically correct dogma”…) in pushing issues like human-induced global warming.

One may find Christian fundamentalists more attractive… cordial… reasonable on a personal level. But, remember when I recounted my experience at my college reunion, I was essentially on the Lefties home turf. Imagine going to a fundamentalist revival meeting. I’m going to assume that the Fundies would speak more freely in that venue.

Again, I don’t think that the Lefties are any more unhappy or bitter as a group than the Fundies. But I would agree that, given how political correctness currently holds sway in “polite society”, the Lefties are certainly more obnoxious.

Well, being what some here seem to think is a fundie, I suppose I should jump in.

Mr. Bingley - the nastier fundies are disdainful; the better ones just pity you in the same half-smiling, half-sneering way lefties do when confronted with such benightedness. Royce is right, the far-lefties I know and the fundies I know are exactly the same, just oriented differently.

No offense, the same can be said of any group, right/left/middle. So gross generalizations that this is unique to 'fundies' or 'lefties' shows your own ignorance and bias, which you are entitled to.

I couldn't open Royce's page, so I don't know if he gets into specifics. But the two certainly share: a refusal to accept empirical facts over their dogma; an insecurity over their dogma which make them agitated and threatened during debate; a conspiratorial worldview that sees dark forces in league behind the scenes; apocalyptic obsessions mixed with utopian fantasies; the idea that America has "gone wrong" (for the fundies, in the eyes of God; for the leftie, in the eyes of France); etc.

Again, over generalization, as perhaps the 'fundies' you have met fit that profile, but don't assume that all fit that mold. The people I talk with are more than able to 'hold their own'.
As for a refusal to accept empirical facts over their dogma..., humans as a group tend to ignore the obvious, and, that combined with the fact that there is no such thing as 'un-biased' (all people filter information based on what they have been taught/believe/etc.), once again, this applies to all people.

And lots of non-Christian/non lefto folks I know think that America has "gone wrong", just that everybody disagrees about how.

Why are they so similar? In the case of the States, I believe it is because they are both the philosophical descendents of the Puritans. You can see it when you read Jonathan Edwards and Cotton Mather.,/i>

Once again, this statement can fit about any group of people, and God Bless you if that is what you think. (Sorry, couldn't help myself there.....)

It sounds like you may need to meet a few more people before you make sweeping statements about large groups. Don't base it solely on the loudest members.

I take it to mean one who believes in the Bible as literal truth and history, i.e., Adam & Eve, the world created 6000 years ago in six days, etc. This is what self-identified fundamentalists have
told me are their beliefs. Is this not correct?

So these things automatically make them (me) a concern? The first lesson in hole digging is: if you are in to deep, stop digging. I suspect many people you have contact with agree with most, if not all of these ideas, yet you would not consider them 'fundies', so you seem to like to hide behind generalizations.

Do fundies ever annoy me, without actually "showing up"? Sure. It annoys me when they try to get creationism taught in schools. It annoyed me when I received a chain letter forwarding an Onion article about Harry Potter teaching kids to hate Jesus, then wrote the first sender to politely point out it was satire, then received a reply saying, "But the point is still valid", and a subsequent "I'll pray for your soul" when I told him that continuing to circulate it as fact when he knows it's fiction simply made him a liar. Yeah, I found that bothersome. That's two occasions, which is about twenty-eight fewer times than I have been bothered by the Post Office, so I suppose I must be projecting some deep-seated guilt about my past postal practices, as well.

News flash, there are dopes in any group of people. And it annoys me when evolution is taught as Gospel Truth, while it is still a
theory, just as creationism is also a theory, but not permitted to be discussed. So much for open minds.... All the more reason why we homeschool.

Crusader,

Agree with you that there are dopes and good folks in any group.

But Sorry, evolution is (and is presented in public school science classes as) a scientific theory. Creationism is the twisting, distorting and debasement of the scientific method to make the evidence fit the belief in a creation myth.

You can call me closed minded, but not until you're willing to explore creation myths from other (non Judeo-Christian) religious traditions and include them (with equal weighting) in public school curricula.

All I know is that to the Christians, I'm a lost lamb and to the Lefties, I'm a mindless sheep.

Maybe I should stop wearing this mint jelly cologne.

Just to wade in here (like all good big sisters should), and smite all 'Crusader' smotes before they are smitten:

He means the jet, not Richard the Lion Hearted or Falwell the Jerry.

Carry on.

But Sorry, evolution is (and is presented in public school science classes as) a scientific theory. Creationism is the twisting, distorting and debasement of the scientific method to make the evidence fit the belief in a creation myth.

Um, not sure where your children attend school, but it is presented as the only explanation in the schools here. Oh, and lovely straw man there: You can call me closed minded, but not until you're willing to explore creation myths from other (non Judeo-Christian) religious traditions and include them (with equal weighting) in public school curricula. Huh? The request that the best known alternate origins theory be givin mention, and discussion, and you ramble off about obscure myths? Is that your best answer? I discuss evolution with my oldest child, so he can compare and contrast (critical thinking ring a bell?), and whichever he concludes to have the most merit, fine by me. But at least he looks at other ideas, not scientific dogma. Can you say the same? I suspect not, but hopefully so.

Crusader,

Good science (true adherence to the scientific method) is not dogma. In fact, it's a dogma-buster. Junk science (whether from the left or religious right) dogmatizes science to fit a belief system.

If there was no Book of Genesis, would anyone... ANYONE believe (given what we know about the natural world by employing the scientific method) that the universe was 6,000 years old...? Puhleese.

We know enough about the way that water erosion acts on specific rocks and supporting evidence from river basins all over the world to utterly blow away Bishop Usher's calculation of the biblical "begats". And that's just one small part of one easily tangible and understandable scientific discipline that crushes the notion that the universe is not billions of years old.

As for the "obscure myths" comment... well, does the fact that those other creation stories are obscure make them any less "true"? I'm not talking about displacing the Judeo-Christian (And Zoroastrian... and Greek... and Roman...) tradition with animist pagan mumbo jumbo. But, if you want to put forth the story of Adam and Eve as a scientific theory... in a science classroom - not a theology or comparative religions classroom -then, by gum you got to include the story of how Magumbo the great tree spirit created the world from his sap. Or… how the universe was created from the lint from the Almighty’s clothes dryer.

As for what I teach my children… No, I don’t encourage them to explore Creation Science (or Magumbo Science for that matter…). Nor do I encourage them to walk across the local city pool .

Third-rate "scientists" who believed in God: Nicholas Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, Gregor Mendel, Kelvin (William Thompson), Max Planck,and Albert Einstein. ;)

Donnah,

Following the scientific method does not require one to be an atheist (I'm not one, BTW...). It does however compel one not to ignore nor selectively interpret the evidence to match one's belief system.

"A healthy dose of skepticism" is not just a good idea in science. It is the foundation of science.

If Galieo Galiei were our contemporary, odds on favorite is that he would be an agnostic or theist. Talk about a dogma-buster.

Here's another dogma-buster. Religion takes many forms.

Hey... that was kinda my point.

All right -- if this thread breaks down into an Evolution-vs.-Creationism cage match, I will shut it down. Royce, with all due respect, I said

NOTHING

about Creationism, about how the various Fundamentalist groups see the E-vs.-C matter, about how old they think the Earth is, or any of that shizzle. And what's more: I. DON'T. CARE. My point was -- and I didn't think I would have to explain it, but I guess I will -- was that Christians seem to be more reasonable about the physical world in that they know it cannot be made into a perfect Paradise by the hand of mankind. Whether there is a Supreme Being who can do so is not my concern.

By the way, you fucked up your italics, screwing up my quote. I have fixed it, but I won't do so again; I'll just delete your post. If you are so bad at HTML as all that, use quotation marks to differentiate quotes from your own contributions.

Oh yea, and Doc: honey vs. vinegar -- remember? Also you might consult the Christian teachings on "pride" and maybe that part in the New Testament about stone-throwing before you go around accusing people of anything.

Doc continues his ignorant, assholian assumptions:

>I still think you have a guilty conscience,
>though.

OK, dickhead, let me explain this to you very thoroughly. I do not have a guilty conscience, because unlike so many Jesus freaks who found the Lord after completely fucking up their lives, I have nothing to feel guilty about. I'm 38, never been ticketed much less arrested, never harmed another human being, never so much as shoplifted a candy bar, got drunk and silly once in my life, got high on pot twice, and I'm twelve years into my first marriage with an amazing woman who thinks I'm the cat's pajamas and whom I couldn't even conceive of cheating on. "How can this be?" asks a confused Doc, "How can a man be a decent man without fear of eternal punishment from an angry God?" Glad you asked - it's called "conscience". Not "guilty conscience" after the fact, but inherent conscience that would make me feel like shit if I hurt someone else. So I don't. And it's not because I fear a hellish punishment or I'm seeking a heavenly reward. So take your insulting inferences about my personal life and stick them up your ass sideways. And while you're at it, ask yourself how meaningful a person's virtue is when it exists only because of a religious carrot and stick.

Y'know, come to think of it, I've actually lived a more virtuous life than friends of Jesus like Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Fae Baker, and Bob "I don't want Negroes kissin' white girls" Jones. So after you stick it sideways, give it a twist.

OK, I have a guilty conscience now for letting Doc get to me and venting so volcanically.

But that is ALL.

I'm going to go back to my heathenistic life of working, paying taxes, and having intramarital relations with my wife now. No more comments from me.

...except this: I'll accept Creationism being taught in public school when fundies accept evolutionary biologists giving lectures in their Sunday schools. Deal?

Andrea,

Jeez... if I didn't know better, the tone of your last post would lead me to believe that you are a cranky and embittered liberal.

Sorry about the tangent into C vs. E. Also, my humble apologies for misplacing the /em tag.

Oh... and I get it... you didn't mean [note careful use of quotation marks] "... the physical world." I think you meant human nature. I tend to agree.

But... I think the reason that Fundamentalists Christians are less obnoxious than Liberals is much simpler than a modern take they may have on original sin. Liberals' power is in the ascendant. The secular power of Christians in general and Fundies in particular has been on the wane for some time. We can afford to be sentimental about them. They are relatively toothless compared to the liberal establishment.

But make no mistake, if the fundies had the political power, they would use the power of the state to attempt to form the world - if not into "paradise on earth" - then more into line with their view of a Godly society. Uh… no thank you.

Anyway, if you find this does not forward the discussion in a way that you see fit... delete it.

You’ve been a charming hostess.

And if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were an oversensitive jerk who couldn't take criticism. Thank Freya I know better!

Seriously, whether you like it or not, there are certain hot-button issues that make a blog comment thread careen (carom? career? I forget) off into endless blahblah land of wasted bandwidth, and as I am currently hosting this site, I need to keep it under some kind of control. E-vs.-C is one of those issues. I am also personally sick of the subject, and happen to know that not all fundamentalists (the definition is somewhat more nuanced than you think) ascribe to the "Earth is only 6500 yrs old cuz the NAV sez so" line of thought. And it has belatedly occurred to me that a better comparison you could have used is "Fundamentalist Muslims." They're the ones causing all the trouble; fundies these days are, as you pointed out, virtually powerless, or at the very least aren't carrying out terrorist attacks.

You have the last word Andrea. My college buddies are really more like Fundamentalist Muslims.