Tim Blair

Madonna must ask herself, “Why do they hate me? What can I do to appease them? When and where should I wear a burka? What is the best way to raise my children as Muslims? Is their an Imam I can submit to in England or should I travel to Saudi Arabia to be beaten? What can I do to eradicate the Jews, remove Bush from office and make the world safe for Islamic fascism?”

I'm waiting for the Madonna "Who Cares?" tour. I thought it would be here by now.

is it evil for me to wish that for once the terrorists would make good on their threats?

Somehow, Bush'll be to blame...

Still, you've got to love the tunes.

Hey Mr DJ, doobee doobee dee,
I wanna dance with mah baaybeee.

Brilliant.

She's got think rethinking to do. I wish her the best.

No one, not even a dippy rock star, deserves to have their kids threatened, especially by people who mean it. (c.f., Nick Berg.)

Hasn't Madonna been "following" or "practicing" Kaballah (sp?), sort of a Jewish mysticism? I'm sure someone here can provide a little more precision as my subscription to People magazine lapsed in the 20th Century.

It'd be interesting to see Madonna devote the next few albums to attacking Islam as she did with Catholicism in the 80s.

yobbo, perhaps she could do a remake of one of her songs titled Papa Don't Behead.

If Madonna played in the Middle East, would it be a 'rock' concert?

Would she get 'stoned'?

Would promoters make a(n) (honor) killing at the box office?

Could she do "Live to Tell" for an encore?

like a virgin
hey!
cut for the very first time

like a vir-gin
a clitorectomy
and you'll be mine

Forbes--
Yes she has. But not "authentic" Kabbalah (turn of the (last) century in Poland) but some form which contains a number of interesting new-agey qualities. I seem to recall a music video in which she used a number of sacred Jewish objects in an obscene/pornographic way.

Sad to say but Israel is so starved for the simple pleasures of plucking down to much money too hear an over the hill, crappy pop star, that they are upset she won't be coming.

Many bands skip right over Israel on tour, so the kids there are kind of bummed out.

You guys are way too hard on poor Madonna. How would YOU feel if you had all two neurons for brains?

"But not "authentic" Kabbalah (turn of the (last) century in Poland) but some form which contains a number of interesting new-agey qualities."

Kabbalah is an outgrowth of Jewish mystical practices from the first centuries after the destruction of the 2nd Temple, but it developed its present form in France and Spain in the 12th c., and further during the 16th c. in Sfat, in the north of Israel. (That's right, a group of Jews living in Israel, like we have done for 3000 years, with a few interruptions over when we were ethnically cleansed from the region.)

My respect for her went up when she said that her children are not allowed to watch television. She's quite happy for your kids to turn into drooling simpletons watching her on MTV, but her own infants will meanwhile be doing Latin and sums on a slate.

I respect that a lot.

It seems a bit strange to me. Has this kind of thing (specific threats against an individual) ever happened before with people not connected to any government before?

Yep. Barbara Streisand stopped performing in public for 20 years because she was threatened. I don't know about what, though, if anyone ever did.

Madonna is just another spoiled, self-absorbed fool whose politics are all lefty, new-agey, oh-so-socially-conscious, until somebody actually calls her on it.

It's sad about the kids of Israel having to miss out on things kids in other parts of the world take for granted, though. Even if it is the musical equivalent of chewing gum.

I find it interesting - if that's the right word -that without knowing it, people like Madonna bring Western Civilisation into disrepute amongst Moslems far more than does the Bushhitler gang.

Which is probably very puzzling to nitwits like her because they expect warm and fuzzy gratitude and solidarity for their denunciations of America and Bush. (See also Sean 'Kissinger' Penn, Alec 'Arivoir' Baldwin et.al.). However, the enemy regard Madonna and her celebrity ilk as being the most kill-able types of all, personifying everything 'wicked and indecent' in the hedonistic West.

You'd think that would make the limousine left pretty angry. But of course you'd be wrong. Instead we get the emergence of the Berg-Deegan Syndrome. This is a 21st Century manifestation of what used to be called the Helsinki Syndrome. With this new variant of the pathology, however, it's not a case of captors aligning themselves with their kidnappers.

Sufferers of Berg-Deegan will not blame Islamist murderers for murder, much less attack the evildoers and their whole revolting, shitty culture. There are two reasons for this: 1) It's easier to blame your own government than an amorphous group of men whose faces you will never see; 2) Less worthy of sympathy, to do so would mean their PC credentials might be called into question. So, like teenagers, they blame Poppa Bush/Blair/Howard.

It will be interesting to see if the threat to Madonna's children pushes her out of, or further into Berg-Deegan delusion. (Which phrase, incidentally, I use with a rational typological creativity rather than a shallow irony).

If the WOT is lost at symbolic and propagandistic levels it may well be because the Western world's elite - the commentariat, celebrities and amoral liberal politicos - didn't want to get embarrassed at dinner parties.

A banal evil mirrored by a banal surrender.

I once defined a conservative as a liberal with teenaged daughters. It does change the perspective.

The question now becomes, will it cause Madonna to reexamine any of her other political shibboleths?

I'm not entirely sure but I think that to study real Kabbalah (not the holywood version) you have to study all the other Jewish writtings for at least 40 YEARS first. Maybe the person who first came up with that rule knew so much kabbalah that they could predict all these 21st century celebrities on a 'religion of the week' fad diet. Shame it didn't work

... people like Madonna bring Western Civilisation into disrepute amongst Moslems far more than does the Bushhitler gang.

CurrencyLad I take your point but we are reaching dangerously into the territory of censoring our freedoms as a kneejerk reaction.

Madonna is a just a singer. Like actors, she says some stupid things. She is not evil. She can say what she wants.

'the enemy regard Madonna and her celebrity ilk as being the most kill-able types of all, personifying everything 'wicked and indecent' in the hedonistic West'

That may be so bu if some 'civilizations' don't like Madonna, fuck 'em. It's no reason to embark on wiping out the west for chrissake.

Madonna's freedom to speak is our mark of civilization. We need to live with it and not eat up our own. We don't have to like them.

If there is a glaring fault in the west it is not so much as the likes of Madonna, Penn and crew,it is that we have not responded ferociously to terrorism and mass murder in kind. That's the only language they understand and it is the only action that will ultimately end terror.

It's going to get worse before it gets better.

Like it or not.

She, like many in Hollywood, can only be described with these words:

Retarded moron.

There is no other way to put it.

She, like many in Hollywood, can only be described with these words:

Retarded moron.

There is no other way to put it.

ilibcc:

Insofar as there is risk attached to calibrating everybody's behaviour in the West for its relative offensiveness to radical Islam, yes you're right. That would be a tendency for which I would have the strongest loathing. It's a subtle sort of area too - fraught with certain difficulties, as you point out.

Madonna certainly has the right to do and say whatever she likes. I couldn't give a flying fuck what the mullahs of the world think about her - or me.

I was pointing to the intellectual ironies at play when the most hedonistic people on the planet suddenly seem to be allying themselves with - or, at least, playing useful idiots for - a religious movement that hates with murderous zeal everything about them. Them most of all. That this self-evident reality hasn't caused them to get hawkish is what mystifies me. That was the puzzlement I sought to express.

And I do think there are two types of denial discernible at the moment: first, the denial of those who blame their own leaders for hideous crimes committed by terrorists because they can't even begin to grapple with the truth we're faced with - and which you describe in closing.

Second, there are people whose every instinct and political belief represents the antithesis of Islamic extremism but who underplay its threatening nature, lest they appear too much like 'racist' 'right-wing' Bushies. A-Listers figure prominently in this latter group.

The first group may have the excuse of ignorance, simpleness or, in individual cases, personal tragedies that affect their judgment. The latter, Michael Moore for example, are doing something profoundly dishonourable, cynical and dangerous.

I just wonder if anything - including Madonna's unfortunate circumstances - can change that mindset in the elites. My suspicion, however, is that if there was another 9/11 catastrophe tomorrow, these people would say, 'well, that's what we get for responding to 9/11. Impeach Bush!'

I didn't think CurrencyLad was advocating censorship or anything else. Just telling it like it is.

Islamists view the West via our rich and famous. They (Islamists) must believe that since we reward these people (a lot), we must approve of what they say and do (a lot).

Some of what our rich and famous do gives the idea via movies, music, and behavior that the pursuit of sexual pleasure is the most important thing to us. Since the Islamists wish to view us this way anyway, it's natural they concentrate on items that support their worldview.

Of course many Islamists would believe awful things about us even if we produced nothing but children's movies and music. I'm not justifying what the Islamists say, but we do provide them with the ammunition to support their accusations.

Madonna has helped supply some of the ammunition. I'm not calling for anyone to boycott or censor her, just pointing out that much of what she has done would be very offensive to the Islamists. She would be an example, to them, of how Western women care only for the pursuit of sexual pleasure. The fact that people here may not agree or care for this generalization is beside the point. The point was how do the Islamists view us and what do they use to bolster their arguments?

It is ironic that many of the people who try and be so embracing of the Islamists, like our celebrities, *are* the very people whose behavior the Islamists find the most offensive.

What do you suppose the Islamists think about the 'Panty Protesters'('Lick Bush', etc.)? I do NOT understand why many people who are anti-Bush and pro-Islamist don't understand that their behavior and views would never be tolerated by the Islamists. Their behavior, especially, is pointed to by the Islamists as evidence we are a very degraded and immoral people. Why are many of these people anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian?

'but we do provide them with the ammunition to support their accusations'

Chris Josephson, I love your writings on Tim's site, but in this post you have seriously lost the plot.

'Madonna has helped supply some of the ammunition.'

Really? For what? Murdering pregnant Israeli women?

'I'm not calling for anyone to boycott or censor her, just pointing out that much of what she has done would be very offensive to the Islamists.'

You're worried about that, Chris?

'She would be an example, to them, of how Western women care only for the pursuit of sexual pleasure.'

Really? How do you arrive at that conclusion, Chris?

And would you care to explain what is wrong with that, were it to be true, which it so obviously is not?

'The point was how do the Islamists view us and what do they use to bolster their arguments?'

Staggering.

Absolutely staggering.

How absolutely ass-about you have got it.

No. It is totally not about what Islamofascists think about us.

It is about what we choose to do about dysfunctional 'societies' who want to murder civilized western societies who have struggled through thousands of years of development - with setbacks - to arrive at a reasonable approximation of how decent human beings should treat each other.

ilibcc:

First, I'm not justifying what the Islamists do or think. I am not 'blaming the victims'. Merely pointing out that, based on what I have read, the Islamists DO use the behavior of some celebrities to validate their arguments to their faithful.

"Really? For what? Murdering pregnant Israeli women?"

Among the other murders they commit to usher in the new Caliphate, yes. One argument,from them, is that we (the West) are decadent and are spreading our decadence to others (the ME). To stop the spread of our decadence, they must rise up and usher in their Utopia on Earth.

There is a sense of urgency to bring the Caliphate into existence. This is based on their view of how much influence the 'decadent' West is having on their peoples. In one way, it's like the French trying to shield their people from the US's culture. Thankfully, the French don't see a need to murder us in order to stop our cultural influences.

"You're worried about that, Chris?"

I'm not worried. I'm just pointing out the way they think and how they have justified their thinking to their followers.

You don't have to agree with someone to understand the points they make. Understanding is not synonymous with agreement. It's also NOT necessary to sympathize with their views.

It's necessary to understand people you agree and disagree with. If you can make the arguments for people you disagree with, you're in a much better position to counter their views. You can also prove they are wrong when they claim you just don't know what you're talking about.

"Really? How do you arrive at that conclusion, Chris?"

Based on listening to the crap the Islamists blather on about. I was curious as to what the Islamists believe and why they believe as they do. So, I've read a lot about what they have to say. The conclusion I drew was based on what I've read.

They believe we (in the West) are decadent people. Of course, they lie and exaggerate big time to make their points. When they have something concrete they can use as an example, they do. The products from our actors and musicians are used, selectively of course, to illustrate how bad we are.

"And would you care to explain what is wrong with that, were it to be true, which it so obviously is not?"

Well, I was trying to point out what they thought. Not what *I* think, necessarily. What I understand about their viewpoint.We are dealing with people who believe women should be veiled from head to toe. It isn't too hard to understand why these people would have a problem with Madonna's stage 'costumes'.

Some people have asked 'Why do they hate us', and blame the victim in the process. When I have wondered why they hate us, I wanted to inform myself. I have never blamed the victim. I am very curious about what helps to shape peoples' beliefs.

I have not mentioned, but do believe, that the Islamists are being used by the ME dictators. The dictators don't want their people's attentions to be on the dictators. 'Decadent West' to the rescue. As long as their people are concentrating on jihad with us, the dictators feel much safer.

I'm not sure how to make my point clearer. I'm rather rushed now so I'll take a stab at this and see if my point is understood.

ilibcc wrote:

It is about what we choose to do about dysfunctional 'societies' who want to murder civilized western societies who have struggled through thousands of years of development - with setbacks - to arrive at a reasonable approximation of how decent human beings should treat each other.

No argument from me regarding this - a brilliant summary if I may say so. I'm talking about the irony, the stupendous irony of the celebrity exemplars of all that Western Civilisation offers having allied themselves with an enemy that regards them, most of all, as the incarnate representation of everything they - the Islamists - hate.

I'm not saying they have a right to that hate, not making any 'she had it coming' claim. I'm just observing something that cannot be denied. Don't we Thread-Blair commenters regularly lampoon the 'idiotarians' and 'moonbats' and celebrity morons who undermine the war effort? What, then, are we disagreeing about?

Perhaps the problem was my statement that Madonna brings "Western Civilisation into disrepute amongst Moslems far more than does the Bushhitler gang." I think you've concluded by that statement that I somehow concede the righteousness of the Islamic critique of the West. Or that there is a portion of that critique which is justified. I make no such concession and acknowledge no such portion.

Again, I'm saying that people like Madonna are the exemplars of what the Islamic medievalists hate about the West. Ergo, isn't it ironic and infuriating that Madonna et alia 1) take the side of these enemies; and 2) blame the clash with Islam on Bushitler?

However, now that we've veered into it, I would feel comfortable saying that 'Western Civilisation' - if it is to remain a 'civilisation' - has to actually be civilised, not merely an endlessly tolerant free-for-all where every deviancy and crackpot notion of 'liberty' is given free reign.

Is it not possible that the 40 years or so of this worldview's dominance in our schools, universities and media is precisely the phenomenon now causing the West to fragment when it should be exterminating its enemies with the very zeal you advocate - a zeal I share.

Do I, then, advocate constraints on personal liberty in the West in order to put starch into its cultural collar? No I don't. But I believe the notion that there is no such thing as any moral truth has become a disease in Western thinking and, in the end, it could be as ruinous to us as Islamism. Indeed, the perniciousness of the former may facilitate the latter. (Perhaps it already is doing so in Europe).

I like to see it this way: maybe truth can never be objective but it must always be our goal. Western Civilisation, after all, became what it did because it was intertwined with, defined by (which includes 'argued with'), Christianity. When I hear a Triple J presenter describe John the Baptist as a fart who heralded Jesus the shit's arrival (as I did), and hear the same presenter making light of Islam's threat to our way of life, then I begin to worry that we've come so far from what our 'civilisation' was that the fight may become impossible to continue. The Spanish certainly came to think so.

The quixotic, bumbling, romantic search for truth - that's what I love about the West and that's what gives us a shot at invincibility, a la Fukuyama. But if that quest is defined only by the sacred right to do whatever the fuck we want, then we're in trouble.

We have to choose to do something about the dysfunctionalities in our society too ilibcc. Not to please the enemy but to beat him.

"I'm not entirely sure but I think that to study real Kabbalah (not the holywood version) you have to study all the other Jewish writtings for at least 40 YEARS first."

No, traditionally it was advised that one not study mystical practices unless one was married and over 40 (and male, of course, as all scholars were then), as they would be too unsettling for younger men, and those who had no regular outlet for sexual expression.

But all kabbalah refers to the accumulated body of Jewish scripture, so you have to have mastered that in order to understand its context and idioms, and that mastery may well take 20-30 years.

Clicking through the Chicago Tribune website - found an AP caption to a picture of Madonna on the images section:

Madonna canceled "three stops on her tour because of violence in the region, including the killing of the leader of the militant group Hamas" AP/Nam Y.

Wonder why the caption read that way?

Ok, turns out that was a reason she gave for not going and also because her manager told her not to.

Chris and CurrencyLad

Broadly speaking we're in agreement about the problem. The solution is tricky.

Perhaps it can be compared to the unwritten law about when families have problems and arguments they're dealt with by the family. But should an outsider intervene, we're shoulder to shoulder.

So if there's any slapping down of Madonna and crew, we'll do it. And we'll also decide if it's fair or not.

But should Islamofascists - or whoever - intervene - we don't put up with that for a moment. I'm only willing to analyse their interpretations and intentions to a fair degree.

The degree at which they start killing people.

One thing needs to be borne in mind when we're talking decadent west.

There is no more decadent culture in the world currently than the subversion of the peaceful religion of Islam by Islamofascists (which I think you both acknowledged). So let them get their house in order before they start killing us.

Madonna canceled "three stops on her tour because of violence in the region, including the killing of the leader of the militant group Hamas"

(...) turns out that was a reason she gave for not going and also because her manager told her not to.

In other words, she says there's plenty of violence in the Middle East (no argument there), but the only case of violence she deigned to mention specifically as a reason for her cancelling the concerts was the Israelis' offing Yassin and/or Rantisi?

I wonder if she'll eventually manage to find a way to blame the Israelis for the terrorist threats against her children, too.

PW, maybe she was offered the new position of Head of Hamas and decided to get as far away from the issue as possible?

Ahem, Sortelli, you do realize that your post includes a terrible pun, don't you?

ilibcc wrote:

So if there's any slapping down of Madonna and crew, we'll do it. And we'll also decide if it's fair or not.

But should Islamofascists - or whoever - intervene - we don't put up with that for a moment. I'm only willing to analyse their interpretations and intentions to a fair degree.

That's a good point. We should go into bat for her over this - perhaps I didn't do so enough, or at all. Anti-Madonna prejudice I'm afraid. We should defend her liberties (and everyone else's) whether they like it or not.

It's just so infuriating when they...

[/rant-o-metre]

We have brave men and women fighting and dying to protect Madonna's right to writhe around on stage.

She obviously takes that for granted when she should be offering to go on a USO tour to entertain our troops.

Within the last few days, a fatwa in Kuwait has banned all FEMALE pop singers from television there.

The threat to entertainers such as herself is real. She just doesn't see it.

By the way, she refused to go on tonight, just the second show into her new tour. That's commitment!

Yes, much of the entertainment crowd is wearing rose colored glasses. Or else they are such opportunists that they've lost sight of the fact that their acting and posturing means little to some parts of the world. Or, as others have noted here, it means their death.

There are some smart ones in that group, but not enough to sway the mob.

More fallout from Madonna's cancellation. Apparently there was a plan for an open air concert in Gaza. An unnamed spokesman for the new Ministry for Cultural Dissemination was quoted:
"We're very disapponted she cancelled, we had the area cleared already in preparation, the whole thing was free entry for everyone."
Interviewer: - You mean you cleared all those homes in Rafa for a Madonna concert?
"Yes of course - did you think we did it for no reason, what do you think we are , animals?"
Interviewer: - But dozens of people were killed when tanks fired into a crowd of demonstrators.
"Ten of those were males of military age!"
Interviewer: - Two children were killed by snipers.
"Didn't happen."
Meanwhile Chairman Arafat denounced those that may have threatened Madonna denying it had anything to do with the PLO.
A Man in Rafa who claimed to be a Hamas member was quoted;
"Good, I'm glad she's not comming. We would have had to sit through 3 hours of that old bag - cruel and unusual punishment -if it was Shakira , NOW you're talking!"

ilibcc wrote,
"No. It is totally not about what Islamofascists think about us.

It is about what we choose to do about dysfunctional 'societies' who want to murder civilized western societies who have struggled through thousands of years of development - with setbacks - to arrive at a reasonable approximation of how decent human beings should treat each other."

How did the predominantly Islamic socities get dsyfunctional and why do they stay that way, in your view?

You're not arguing that extremist Muslim hatred of Western culture (e.g., Madonna acting like a slut in videos and concerts) plays no role *at all* in their dislike of us and their desire to kill us, are you?

Someone wrote in response:
They believe we (in the West) are decadent people.

I think that's entirely self evident. For anyone here to show surprise, shock or doubt about this, as ilibcc has done, has his or her head buried in the sand.

Someone else ("currencyLad?") said,

That's a good point. We should go into bat for her over this - perhaps I didn't do so enough, or at all. Anti-Madonna prejudice I'm afraid. We should defend her liberties (and everyone else's) whether they like it or not.

Please, please don't attempt to rally support for Madonna under the "we must defend everyone's right to free speech" mantra. Yeeech.

Besides, that twit (Madonna Ciccone Ritchie) doesn't practice free speech so much as she has pre-rehearsed, calculated lines to read at her concerts and interviews that are used for the purposes of manufactured controversy which garner her free publicity.

Madonna cares more about her album sales figures falling or her hair appointment next week than she does the situation in Israel, Iraq, or whatever, LOL.

I maintain an Anti Madonna discussion board where we've been talking about all this and the reasons behind her calling off her second night's gig in Los Angeles as well as the Israel leg of her tour - and it's still murky.

Even professional online news agencies are reporting conflicting things about it as of last night (and probably today).

We're also told that she had a stiff back and knee and that's why she called off the show, still other sources maintain it's due to tummy flu, but then, a *fan* site reported that Madonna attending a late night party after her first who, to celebrate it. If she was that ill from tummy flu or whatever, why would she go to a party after the show?

you are all doing madonna a great service by turning her superficial politcal entertainment into an intelligent discussion. let's be honest, the woman lacks the intelligence to make her a "great" person, so don't critique her work like it actually has some greater meaning.