October 25, 2004

IRON JOHN

European anti-militarists have really picked the wrong guy as their hero, writes Edward Luttwak:

In the televised debates, when President Bush spoke of "defeating terrorism", Kerry invariably spoke of "killing the terrorists". This was not just an electoral pose: the words accurately reflect the character of the man. He is a fighter, a two-fisted brawler. In all his past electoral campaigns, successful or otherwise, he was always the more aggressive candidate, ready to make wild accusations he knew to be false in the hope that some voters would believe even the incredible. At the moment he is telling older voters that Bush has a secret plan to cut their pensions by 45 per cent, and younger voters that Bush has a secret plan to re-introduce compulsory military service ...

I am quite certain that if Kerry had been president on September 11 he would have reacted more violently than Bush, sending bombers into Afghanistan, not just Special Forces scouts, and demanding immediate co-operation - or else - from Saudi Arabia, not just Pakistan.

In Australia, Michelle Grattan is appalled by Kerry’s goose massacre:

The other day John Kerry, as part of his campaigning, took a gun, dressed in camouflage, and went off to shoot some geese. His aides said this was to give voters "a better sense of ... the guy".

To foreign eyes, this gratuitous violence had to be the most extraordinary moment of a larger-than-life US presidential campaign.

Posted by Tim Blair at October 25, 2004 02:23 PM
Comments

I am sorry, but the thought of Lurch with a rifle in hand just chills me to the bone. After what he did to his fellow service men after Vietnam, imagine what he could do to his aides with an actual loaded weapon in hand.

Posted by: Todd at October 25, 2004 at 02:31 PM

gratuitous violence?!? How do they think all those horses they eat get on their tables?

Posted by: Rebecca at October 25, 2004 at 02:31 PM

Yup, I can easily believe that. Kerry clearly seems to have some anger management issues (not quite as bad as Latham does, but it's there), and he doesn't take slightly challenges to his masculinity, no matter how far-fetched. Imagining him as president after another large-scale terrorist attack, I can't help but picture a headless chicken running around, frantically searching for a course of action. The scene ends with the chicken pushing the big red button, because that's the quick'n'easy "solution" in that situation...

Posted by: PW at October 25, 2004 at 02:39 PM

"...this gratuitous violence had to be the most extraordinary moment..."

If they had really been watching this campaign, they would know that the reporters were not allowed to see what happened, and that in all likelihood the whole thing was a complete fraud, and Kerry didn't shoot anything.

Except maybe his political foot.

Ironic, really.

Posted by: zeppenwolf at October 25, 2004 at 02:40 PM

Exactly.

Kerry's not the kind of guy who, when America is under attack, would read My Pet Goat for seven (7!!!) minutes.

Posted by: Adam at October 25, 2004 at 02:42 PM
To foreign eyes, this gratuitous violence had to be the most extraordinary moment of a larger-than-life US presidential campaign.
Don't get out much, do they?

Adam said:

Kerry's not the kind of guy who, when America is under attack, would read My Pet Goat for seven (7!!!) minutes.
You're right, he wouldn't. He'd sit around with others in Congress, stunned, for about 40 minutes. By his own admission.

Posted by: Barbara Skolaut at October 25, 2004 at 02:49 PM

"Gratuitous violence"? It's gratuitous if you leave the carcass to rot in the field. If you take it home, it's called "food".

I wonder if Michelle Grattan only eats tofu and salads. Of course, those tofu slaughterhouses are GRODY.

Posted by: Dwagar at October 25, 2004 at 02:54 PM

Hmmm. Either I've suddenly found myself in the bearded-Spock universe, or Luttwak is talking about some other John Kerry. If he'd been president on 9/11, I have no doubt Kerry's reaction would have been to appeal to the UN to "do something". This would perhaps have been followed by a token cruise missile attack to burnish his warrior credentials.

Adam -- you're confused. Kerry has already admitted he spent 45 minutes sitting "stunned" in his seat in the Senate chamber after the attacks were announced. Bush probably had a draft version of the Afghan campaign laid out by the time Kerry got up off his keister.

Posted by: Mike at October 25, 2004 at 02:56 PM

(7!!!)

I can't stop laughing at the exclamation marks. Pray tell, Adam, what would Kerry have done in those precious 7 minutes?

Since the Secret Service would have been organizing his safe retreat in those seven minutes (as they did for Bush), I presume Kerry would have accidentally knocked over a few of them in his headless chicken run, and then called one of them "a son of a bitch". Before ordering Mecca to be nuked, as saner people try to sedate the big lug and whisk him into the waiting helicopter. Yeah, that's the kind of president we need.

Posted by: PW at October 25, 2004 at 02:57 PM

Adam sez:

"Kerry's not the kind of guy who, when America is under attack, would read My Pet Goat for seven (7!!!) minutes. "

BZZZZZZZTTTTT!!!

WARNING! INCOMING MALE BOVINE FECAL MATTER DETECTED! TAKE PERSONAL PROTECTIVE MEASURES IMMEDIATELY!!

Gah! You leftoid moonbats are not only stupid, you are boring and unoriginal. Would you PLEASE come up with something different that hasn't been hacked to pieces by intelligent people?

But to answer you, Adam, would you prefer that Bush would have launched an immediate nuclear strike? Deploy the 82nd Airborne to points unknown? Occupy the United Nations building? Rush down to the World Trade Center and hand out bottled water? Or keep a calm demeanor, and reassure a nation.....not to mention a room full of children?

Think hard. Extra points will be awarded for logic and original thinking.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 25, 2004 at 03:00 PM

I admire a President who is calm enough to continue reading a book to children in a moment of supreme crisis, without missing a beat. That would take a lot of self-control and confidence in his staff.

Posted by: EvilPundit at October 25, 2004 at 03:01 PM

Well, he got a bronze star, a silve star, and three purple hearts in four months. No telling what he could have accomplished in seven minutes. He could have airlifted a swift boat to Tora Bora, beached it, and shot a wounded teenage Bin Laden.

Posted by: John Davies at October 25, 2004 at 03:02 PM

Either I've suddenly found myself in the bearded-Spock universe, or Luttwak is talking about some other John Kerry. If he'd been president on 9/11, I have no doubt Kerry's reaction would have been to appeal to the UN to "do something".

I don't think you can extrapolate from Senator Kerry to President Kerry like that. As a mere Senator, he has the luxury of reacting to events in a delayed fashion, and that seems to result in the essential do-nothing, let-the-UN-handle-it Kerryness. On the other hand, as president, Kerry would be forced to react as things happen, and as stated above, I find it quite realistic that he'd just go on a rampage. Recall the stories about him suddenly deciding to chase down and kill a fleeing and apparently unarmed Vietcong...

Posted by: PW at October 25, 2004 at 03:04 PM

And while I'm on the subject of leftoids and logic.....

On the one hand, Luttwack describes Senator Kerry as a "two fisted fighter".

On the other hand, Michelle Grattan describes this goose hunt as "gratuitous violence".

On the gripping hand, Adam above sneers at President Bush for reading a story to children when he should have been doing.....SOMETHING!!

Could you barking moonbats please coordinate your whines and complaints? Or at least not release counterpoints all at the same time? Not for me.....the undecided voters are getting whiplash from these sudden changes in direction.

On second thought....keep up the good work! If you keep this up, the undecided voters will go for President Bush simply because he's not confusing.

Senator Kerry and Staff -- along this line of reasoning, I think PETA wants a lunch meeting with you. The main course is Tofu Turkey and raw greens.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 25, 2004 at 03:07 PM

You're right, Adam. It was irresponsible of him, the man with the nuclear trigger, to spend seven whole minutes getting his shit together while his staff sorted out what was happening and prepared to report the developing situation to him. When the shit hits the fan, I want a president who will act in nanoseconds no matter how unknown the situation is.

In fact, he should have sprung to his feet, torn off his shirt to reveal his red & blue costume with the "S" on the front, and flown off to save the passengers of Flight 93.

You're probably the sort of leftist retard who calls seven minutes an unconscionable delay and twelve months of negotiations a "rush to war." As they say in other parts of the Anglosphere, "Sod off, you wanker."

Posted by: Dave S. at October 25, 2004 at 03:19 PM

Re: The Real JeffS and leftoid logic.

Kerry's prime issue is that the "anyone but Bush" segment of the population is coming from diametrically opposing camps. No blood for oil! vs. outsourcing the hunt for Osama. My Pet Goat vs. Bushitler. Backdoor draft vs. killing the terrorists. I'm surprised Senator Kerry hasn't exploded in a puff of feathers just like his goose. Or what is purportedly his goose.

By the way, never face a tofu turkey down without heavy ammo. Nasty bastards that they are. I've hunted tofus before and the experience is seared in my memory.

Posted by: Dwagar at October 25, 2004 at 03:20 PM

Kerry’s after action report while geese hunting:

My band-of-brothers were ambushed by a numerically superior force of geese. After enduring 5,000 meters of withering wing beats, each one of us killed a goose. I was not photographed carrying a dead goose because that stupid retriever didn’t get my goose. Under my firm leadership, we decided to donate the dead geese to the people that George Bush made homeless. Despite enduring a scratch while loading my shotgun, I was able to pull a fellow hunter out of the marsh while very angry geese honked at us. I am due at least one medal. I am John Kerry, and I approved this message.

Posted by: perfectsense at October 25, 2004 at 03:21 PM

Kerry's a puppet. For god's sake, Clinton, almost in pre-op, had to drag him in to tell him what to do. The goose thing was some other nitwits idea I'm sure. Goose's goose cooked by goose.
He has more handlers than a circus.
Thats why I agree he would be unpredictable in a crisis. He has no moral centre and would be malleable in a crisis.

Posted by: MOik at October 25, 2004 at 03:24 PM

Gosh, I really wish Michelle Grattan lived in Ohio or Florida instead of Australia. Then she would either vote for Nader or would sit around weeping into her organic salad on November 2 bemoaning the fact that the man she was going to vote for is a murderer most fowl. Either way, it would be one less vote for Lurch. Let's hope at least a few pasty-faced vegans in the battleground states had the same reaction Michelle did to Kerry's wild goose chase.

"You know, it's one thing to kill a bunch of Vietnamese, but shooting a innocent goose is really fascist!"

And as for Adam: Christ, how was Bush supposed to react? Should he have jumped up and screamed "Holy f*cking shit, kids, we're being attacked?"

Posted by: Donna V. at October 25, 2004 at 03:32 PM

LOL, Dwagar!!!

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 25, 2004 at 03:35 PM

Michelle Grattan's observation just about rates with the ABC's interview last week of Loiusana hunters shooting squirrels in the forests, who expressed their support for George Bush. The implication was that people who talk funny and shoot animals must be Bush voters.

Posted by: mr magoo at October 25, 2004 at 03:47 PM

"Well, he got a bronze star, a silve star, and three purple hearts in four months. No telling what he could have accomplished in seven minutes. He could have airlifted a swift boat to Tora Bora, beached it, and shot a wounded teenage Bin Laden."

Go ahead, mock his military service.

Why do you people hate America!!!

Posted by: Adam at October 25, 2004 at 04:12 PM

I don't think Michelle has anything to worry about. It was a plastic goose after all.

Posted by: Art Vandelay at October 25, 2004 at 04:19 PM

That's shoot animals and talk funny in a manner reminiscent of Genghis Khan. If you please. Adam, go play on the freeway or something. Go ahead, mock President Bush. Why do you hate America? Besides, President Bush is the smart one. Vdare.com hehhehheh!

Posted by: YoJimbo at October 25, 2004 at 04:22 PM

Well, we can officially classify Adam as a troll. He's ignoring the responses we made to his first post.

AND.....he is going down the Official Leftoid Moonbat Pro-Kerry Talking Points Checklist (TM).

Therefore, further discussion with him is a waste of bandwidth, 'cause he ain't listening.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 25, 2004 at 04:26 PM

Adam — Ah, Kerry made a mockery of his military service long before we got to it, son...

And someone might point out to Mr. Luttwak that we did send bombers into Afghanistan.... one we knew where to aim them. That whole carpet-bomb-the-cities-by-night thing is so European... and rather 20th century at that...

Posted by: richard mcenroe at October 25, 2004 at 04:28 PM

For the likes of Adam, I'm curious:

Why is it that so many of the same people that deride Dubya for taking seven whole minutes to react to an unprecedented event, also want nuclear weapons to be taken off alert?

One would think that, given their preference for prompt reaction, that they would want nuclear weapons to be on even higher states of alert, perhaps even aloft, as they were in the 1960s?

Nor are people mocking Kerry's service. What they are mocking is his unwillingness to release his military records, which would confirm his claims about his military service.

Of course, one might prefer to simply take the Navy at its word regarding his medals. But then, did you take the Air National Guard's word about Dubya's honorable discharge?

Posted by: Dean at October 25, 2004 at 04:29 PM

"To foreign eyes, this gratuitous violence had to be the most extraordinary moment of a larger-than-life US presidential campaign."

I'm foreign,I didn't think it was gratuitous violence but I thought her comments were presumptuous.How the hell does she know what my eyes are thinking?Hell, I don't even know what they are thinking.

Posted by: gubbaboy at October 25, 2004 at 04:33 PM

Well, we can officially classify Adam as a troll.

Yes, but he's kinda cute with his indignant foot-stomping and all. Maybe Andrea lets us keep him.

Posted by: PW at October 25, 2004 at 04:36 PM

In less than seven minutes I would have expected the Secret Service to have the President somewhere other than a school on what I assume (but don't know - since I'm not sure how paranoid they are) was a public itenary of the President's public activities of the day.

That school would seem like a good target for a plane after all. Though such things would be hard to organise that fast - easier to just hit pre-planned big targets - but should you just trust they won't be organised enough?

That's got nothing to do with the President personally of course, that's the security.

Posted by: sam at October 25, 2004 at 04:45 PM

Re: sam

That's actually an interesting point. I've researched that point on conspiracy sites, lefty sites and righty sites.

The immediate reaction would be to get the President into Air Force One and whisk him away somewhere safe. Yet the immediate threat was being in an airplane at that time.

Seven minutes is time enough to let Air Force sites know that Air Force One was in such-and-such a location and would be taking such-and-such a course. Spiriting the President away immediately in Air Force One without taking those precautions could have led to disaster.

All ungrounded planes at that time were considered to be potential threats.

Except, of course, any plane piloted by a bin Laden family member. As Farenheit 9/11 taught me, there were Saudi pilots zooming about in our airspace without a care in the world, making loop-de-loops and waving at us commoners on the ground, their disdashas flapping in the wind! Elitist Saudi flyboys...

J/K sam, I know the Saudi thing isn't your intended meaning. :-)

Posted by: Dwagar at October 25, 2004 at 05:03 PM

I'm new here, and find the discussion very intersting. I'm from Dallas, a Democrat, voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 (would have otherwise voted for Bush), and have met Dubya once. I was an officer in the Marine Corps in the mid-seventies, and served mostly with Vietnam Vets.

About Pres. Bush, I think he is very smart in a pragmatic way, he seems to cut through the BS and I also think he has done a remarkable job in difficult times.

On some of the above topics, consider the following:

1. President Bush continued the classroom reading on 9/11 becuase no one knew what had happened. Many people assumed the first plane was an accident, and he correctly remained calm until he knew there was a reason to behave otherwise.

2. Kerry went goose hunting, but in typical liberal form refused to carry the goose out himself. He wanted the conservatives to see him with a gun, but didn't want the Animal Rights crazies to see him with a dead goose. No core belief, just political games.

3. As a vet, I have a problem with someone receiving at least two of his Purple Hearts without spending a single night in the hospital. I had fellow Marines who's feet bled on marches because they got jungle rot, or spent weeks in bed each year with the Maleria they contracted, all without receiving a medal.

4. I also have a problem with Kerry inducing people to lie, referring to my friends as war criminals when I know it wasn't true. Whatever his record in Vietnam, his record after returning home is beyond dispute.

John Kerry is no more qualified to be President than Dubya is to be a diction coach.

Posted by: Rick at October 25, 2004 at 05:03 PM

i now have the mental image of Sen. Kerry exploding in a puff of feathers. thank you. =D

Posted by: samkit at October 25, 2004 at 05:08 PM

ok. here's what i've learned from this thread. it's wrong for kerry to shoot a goose but it's ok for him to shoot a fleeing teenage vietnamese boy in the back and kill him.

Posted by: rosceo at October 25, 2004 at 05:14 PM

So much talk about those seven minutes- Mr Bush did something that the children will always remember- he stayed calm and thought of those children- he could do nothing for those in the WTC but he showed calm in the face of holocaust but he could and did show that those children weere his first concern by sitting calmly with them,
As for Kerry with his pre-emptive attack on the poor geese just for a photo op'I hope it chokes him.
I hope he donated them to the hungry.

Posted by: Rose at October 25, 2004 at 05:30 PM

Very funny perfectsense, Donna V., and gubbaboy. Thanks for giving me a good laugh.

Posted by: Janice at October 25, 2004 at 06:45 PM

Re: Dwagar

I can see why Air Force One mightn't have been the best place to be. Though with a fighter escort it might be safer than most places.

But surely away from the place where you are on the public record as being is better than right where the bad guys know you are. In a car with bullet proof glass surrounded by armed guys in bullet proof vests (note: the word 'proof' is wrong, but you know what I mean) driving to a secure location seems better than waiting around in a school room. Of course maybe they don't have that sort of security - I've only seen that side of things in the movies which aren't renowned for realism...

I can also understand that moving out of a building would expose you to danger so there's an argument for staying. Still I'd be putting multiple non-subtle security guys within a meter of the President just in case the then unknown attackers charge the school. The kids will just have to cope with the experience.

Better some scared kids than a dead President...

Of course for all I know they were doing commando style things and securing the area perfectly well thank you very much.

Posted by: sam at October 25, 2004 at 07:46 PM

It certainly was gratuitous. Killing for food is fine. Killing for relaxation and 'sport', I don't approve of, but at least it's a reason, and it's a free country. But taking a life just for a campaign prop? Going out and deliberately shooting a living creature, just so you can strut before the cameras and say 'Me John. Me kill vicious goose. Me protect America good.', that's just about the definition of gratuitous violence. Especially since nobody buys it, so those geese died for no reason whatsoever.

Posted by: Zev Sero at October 25, 2004 at 09:54 PM

How do you ask a goose to be the last goose to die for a photo op?

Posted by: docob at October 25, 2004 at 11:33 PM

You would think that for the forty minutes where Kerry sat stunned, he might have instead considered picking up a phone and calling someone in his state of Massachusetts to find out more information. The two airplanes that crashed into the towers BOTH took off from Logan Airport. Way to react for your citizens, Kerry.

Posted by: Shaun at October 26, 2004 at 12:04 AM

'I presume Kerry would have accidentally knocked over a few of them in his headless chicken run, and then called one of them "a son of a bitch".'

Is anyone else being reminded of George Costanza fleeing from a burning house at child's birthday party?

Posted by: Steve Clarke at October 26, 2004 at 12:19 AM

Yo, Adam, you listening? I'll waste a little bandwidth here.....

I think ALL of your talking points have been "deconstructed". And then some.

And not for the first time, I might note. As I said before, original you ain't.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 26, 2004 at 12:22 AM

Zev Sero -- good point. Senator Kerry's goose hunt was gratuitous. He literally killed for political gain.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 26, 2004 at 12:25 AM

George Bush did the right thing, he let the professionals get things organised, and he didn't get in their way.

That is the mark of a good leader.

Posted by: Sheriff at October 26, 2004 at 12:58 AM

"Extra points will be awarded for logic and original thinking."

So you're saying that he's going to get negative points, then?

Posted by: Rick C at October 26, 2004 at 12:59 AM

I can't figure that out. What did these fools want President Bush to do, stand up, scream, "HOLY S@$%, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" and stomp on the kids as he ran out the door, peeing on himself?

You, Adam, are a drooling troll. But funny.

Andrea, can we keep him and poke him with sticks?

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

Posted by: Elizabeth at October 26, 2004 at 01:52 AM

Yes, but wear gloves.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at October 26, 2004 at 02:30 AM

Thanks a lot, Andrea! (Rummaging for the big, pointy stick).

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

Posted by: Elizabeth at October 26, 2004 at 03:01 AM

Elizabeth - If you can't find a suitable stick, check my backyard. Remember, I have 2 large trees back there. :-D

Posted by: Barbara Skolaut at October 26, 2004 at 03:37 AM

How about fresh fruit instead?

Posted by: JEM at October 26, 2004 at 03:48 AM

Rick C:

Adam awards negative points to himself, simply by opening his mouth or typing on a computer.

And, thanks, Andrea! I always wanted my very own troll to play with. I'll be REAL careful!

Posted by: The Real JeffS at October 26, 2004 at 05:00 AM

Thanks, Barbara, but I've got the big, solid walking stick with the pointy end. Works just fine.

Elizabeth
Imperial Keeper

Posted by: Elizabeth at October 26, 2004 at 05:07 AM

I love it- the loonies like Adam have been all over Bush for taking 7!!!!!!! minutes to gather his thoughts and wait for more info, while also not freaking the heck out of a bunch of little kids. Then, in the same breath these idiots slam Bush for RUSHING IMPETUOUSLY off to war, as if it just occured to him at that moment to do it. Nevermind the months and months of stonewalling at the UN by the Axis of Weasels.
So what is it you leftist idiots? He's either impetuous, reckless and hasty....or he's sloooow, dim-witted, unable to make a decision.
Which will it be this week????

Posted by: spitfire9 at October 26, 2004 at 05:10 AM

Sam,

Just a quick point: Whenever the President or Vice President visit a facility, the security is ridiculous. I had an internship in college at a McDonnell-Douglas facility (already pretty secure; we were searched every morning before entering the plant), and Quayle came to give a speech during lunch. For the entire hour previous and the entire hour after his speech, there were Secret Service in the hallways, confining us to our desks (we couldn't even go to the restroom), and we could hear more on the roof.

I compare that experience to attending a Bledisloe Cup match in Sydney in 1999 and right before the end of the match watching a familiar face walk down the aisle not four feet from me and asking my Australian friends, "Hey, isn't that the Prime Minister?" just before John Howard presented the Cup to the Wallabies.

So, I think the President was in pretty good hands that morning in September.

Posted by: DDN at October 26, 2004 at 07:41 AM

We don't have a history of assasinating (or even attempted assasinations of) our Prime Ministers so it's understandable that we don't really give a hoot about security.

Our system of Government also provides less incentive for people to assasinate the PM as the role isn't equivalent to that of President. Of course that means nothing to the nutters who would do such things.

Posted by: sam at October 26, 2004 at 10:27 AM

If you read the entire article by Luttwak you will find that he has swallowed uncritically all Kerry's bragging about his heroism in Vietnam. The truth is that Kerry did his best to evade the draft and volunteered for the navy only to avoid being drafted into the army; that he swift boat unit he joined was, at the time he volunteered for it, one of the safer assignments in the navy; that his fellow veterans have given very different accounts of how Kerry got his medals, and nobody has discredited them; that Kerry's war stories have been proven to be lies in certain important particulars, and his refusal to release his military records throws reasonable doubt on all of them. Luttwak also ignores Kerry's antiwar activities and slandering of American soldiers, and his long Senate record of voting against virtually all attempts to strengthen the military. Luttwak tries to portray Kerry as a hawk on the grounds that he has a tendency to lie about his opponents in political campaigns and recently went on a goose hunt in which he failed to shoot any geese.

Posted by: doyne dawson at October 26, 2004 at 01:03 PM

As usual, Kerry misheard Clinton's advice, which was about the proper techniques for goosing interns.

Posted by: cuckoo at October 26, 2004 at 01:48 PM