Tim Blair

Why isn't Associated Bias pushing to get John Kerry's records released, both service and medical? Why, huh? Why?

Funnily enough, there's no mention of the fact that Barnes' daughter said he admitted to her that he lied about Bush. Why hasn't the MSM chased this one up?

And no mention that Staudt has insisted that he accepted Bush into the National Guard himself, without any outside influence?

Scott Campbell

I have the feeling that CBS's search for the "real" source of the documents will take it to many of the same golf courses where OJ Simpson continues to search for the real killers.

"He promised the kids at Kinko's he wouldn't tell?"

There you go. "I didn't actually put 'em on the glass myself!"

Ouch Man, that is brutal. My computer room door keeps opening by itself. Evidently the Ghost of CBS Integrity.

I believe the technical, Nixonian term for Dan's statement is, "a modified, limited, hang-out."

So these documents caused CBS to put on witnesses who either lied (Barnes), were misqouted (Hodges, all their document experts) or irrelevant (Strong)?

So what was it again that CBS thinks they did right?

Does anyone else think that in Rather's interview with Bill Burkett tonight, they'll claim that the original source was a Republican, who they trusted because he was "speaking out from the other side," but who was really secretly working for Karl Rove? Otherwise why make a distinction btwn. Burkett and the "original source"?

I wonder if British and Aussie "news" outlets are following this. Maybe Tim should ask Margo.

I'm sure Burkett's claim will be "I'm not a forger, I'm a dumb-shit just like you, Dan".

If I could, I would make Australia our honorary "52nd state," both as a token of our deep affection and to watch Bob Hawke squirm.

I love Aussies. They're the only people in the world more American than Americans. I mean that as a compliment, in case that's not clear.

My favorite part is that CBS is now angry at the White House for not warning them that the documents were fake.

Sheeesh,

Even the good 'ol BBC back here in Blighty is having to admit Dan Rather is in "rather" a mess. BBC Radio 4 carried coverage of an interview with their correspondent Justin Webb @ about 5:50pm (our time).

In the interview, Dan was "rather" squeamish - to say the least, talking about how "this story is true" and how the opposition are nitpicking at details in a desperate attempt to kill it.

Yeah, right!

"My favorite part is that CBS is now angry at the White House for not warning them that the documents were fake."

The Micah Wright defense!

That has to be the most smarmy, most intelligence-insulting, non-apology I've had the displeasure of reading in quite a while. And they even think nothing about continuing to push the "there are still important questions about GWB's Guard service" line even though their only piece of evidence has been vaporized six ways from Sunday.

Just pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

Well, nothing has changed with that non-apology. CBS continues their position as the lowest of the bottom feeders.

This is simply the most important issue facing us today.

CBS, "The documents may have been fake but when is Bush going to answer all these non-questions they didn't raise? Huh? HUH?!"

CBS attempted to deliberately go with a story that had warning bells all over it because Rather hates Bush and wants to get him. Plainly stated - one of the major broadcast networks blatantly published falsehoods - knowing them to be suspect before airing them - in order to influence the presidential election of 2004 in the United States. The FCC should demand the firing of the entire hierarchy of CBS news as well as 60 Minutes II - including Dan Rather and his producer. CBS should be made to make a huge apology by their CEO on every network and cable outlet that says we deliberately tried to influence the election - those parties who did so have been fired - and list who they are. Furthermore, CBS should institute a policy wherein no news personality, producer, director, etc, should be allowed to speak at any partisan political events being held by either party. Failing this - the FCC should strip the broadcast license of all CBS owned stations including their flagship in NYC immediately.

The only question I have is this:
The DNC's fingerprints are all over this. How much did they have to do with this? And how close will anyone be able to prove that Kerry was involved - his campaign was most certainly involved but could that be proven?

Who gave the forged memos to Burkett? He said today that he received them from somebody else. Rather said they were from an "unimpeachable source". Does Rather consider Burkett an "unimpeachable source"? Shouldn't someone ask that bleeping question!!! These memos obviously came from the Kerry campaign and now the coverup really begins. See if the MSM delves into this aspect. CBS knows where the memos came from and they know that, if revealed, it will doom the Kerry campaign. It's also interesting to note that any Democrat constitutes and "unimpeachable source".

Odd, the CBS memo forgot to mention that they were told these documents were trouble before the broadcast. From Howard Kurtz' story in the Washington Post:

Emily Will of North Carolina, one of the experts CBS had asked to examine the memos, sent Mapes an e-mail outlining her concerns over discrepancies in Killian’s signature. She also phoned CBS and raised more questions about whether the typography in the memos existed in 1972 and differences with other military documents. “They looked like trouble to me,” Will said.
Linda James, a document examiner who lives near Mapes, was raising similar questions. The two memos she looked at “had problems,” James recalled telling CBS, and she could not rule out that they had been “produced on a computer.”

Tim, that's got to be the most savage post I've ever seen you write about anything besides Margo! There's blood all over the blog, man! Next time, we've got to put down a tarp.

The reason the source is "unimpeachable" is that the source does not hold elected office. Said source might still be indictable.

In a separate statement, Rather said that "after extensive additional interviews, I no longer have the confidence in these documents that would allow us to continue vouching for them journalistically.

Does this count as Rather bieng the one to have broken the story?

The truth is out, somebody inform PowerLine & LGF!

That whole "apology" read like an old Lanny Davis, Clinton covering, spin-job from the late nineties.

Put a fork in em'.

I think JEM has it right; the DNC's fingerprints are all over this, especially when considering how quickly they used the snippit from the original CBS 60 Min-II broadcast to go along with their Fortunate Son theme they were using.

This makes me wonder what will be the DNC's next "themed attack," and if CBS (or, what the hell, one of the other ones) will just happen to have a story that coincides with it.

There's never just one cockroach. I bet other 60 Minutes segments are equally factually-challenged. Think about it - if they couldn't figure out such an obvious fabrication, what can they figure out?

"Because the documents are ... (nine letters, beginning with 'f')?"

You want 'f'- words to describe these papers? How about

fact-free "fictition" (Michael Moore), fantastical flim-flammery, foolhardy frame-up, fantasy figments, fabulous fakery, factual falsehoods, faulty fables, farfetched fairytales, factitious farrago, flagitious fibbery, flimsy fancy, fudged foolscap, flagrant falsity, foul fleecing, feigned fair-hand, felonious frauds, fishy falsifications, fictive files, feebleminded fabrications, farcical facsimiles, fallacious faxes, and f***ed up forgeries?

Pajama People 1
Dan Rather 0

Unimpeachable means above reproach, of unquestionable veracity and integrity.

I thought it meant he could never taste good in a pie.

Rather lied, his credibility died.

OT: Plastic turkey sighting! Oh all right, "plasticized" turkey.

Headlines are saying "Dan Rather Apologizes". Do they realize that sounds like he somewhat apologizes? More to the point, anyway.

Beauty dc,
thanks for sending me to that shirt-lifter Moore's website. I have never had any intention of giving him a 'hit' and now my hands and mind are tainted just like in Shakespeare's Macbeth. How do I cleanse myself now? Bloody hell!

Oh, if only you people were just as outraged about the lies told about invading Iraq! If only you had demanded proof then!

If only you called for the resignation of Rumsfeld over Abu Ghraib! Where people were raped, beaten and killed! Where's the outrage about Rumsfeld waiving human rights at Guantanamo Bay?

If only you were furious about Cheney's involvement in allowing the travesty that is Halliburton supply our troops! Especially since some of them eat one meal a day for weeks due to lack of supplies!

Oh my goodness! A news organization made a mistake about 35 year old memos! The horror! The shock! The indignation!

Get real.

i can't tell the real posts from the spoof posts sometimes...

CBS News has one single, solitary chance. If they actually do a full, independant investigation by credible people of who gave what to whom, who talked to who when (phone records for Mary Mape's cell, anyone?) and fully airs the linen. If they screw around even a little bit, the trigger gets pulled, and their revenue stream dries up like a Texas lake in summer. Or is that a mixed metaphor? Whatever...

It find it really hard to believe that the DNC, if not the Kerry campaign itself, were up to their eyebrows in this. The coincidence of the timing of the "Fortunate Son" ads (nope, no irony there!) is pretty damning, in my opinion.

Scout,

On the off chance that you weren't being funny-
We weren't "outraged over the lies told about invading Iraq", because there were no lies told. We were told our troops were going to invade because Saddam wouldn't comply with UN resolutions. And then they did.

We haven't "called for the resignation of Rumsfeld over Abu Ghraib" because he is not responsible for criminal troops breaking the law and breaking faith with their service from time to time. He is responsible for bringing them to justice and for making amends where possible. Rumsfeld is not "waiving human rights at Guantanamo". The administration made the decision to treat suspected terrorist combatants as just that, and not as uniformed prisoners of war or as American citizens in good standing. Even so, they get to eat familiar food and practice their religion while they are there.

We aren't "furious about Cheney's involvement in allowing the travesty that is Halliburton supply our troops" because Halliburton is only one of two mega companies capable of handling large-scale logistics. The other one is French. Please source your charge that our troops are being deprived of meals. My inside info is that this is bogus. I can verify through channels.

About your "the horror! the shock!" mocking of our reaction to a "mistake about 35 year old memos": A "free press" that egregiously slanders and libels a sitting President (or opponent) and colludes with partisans is no longer "free". The costs to our country and discourse are greater than you sneeringly dismiss.

MOVEON Scout. Take your ACT somewhere else. Mojo. You might want to take a look at Hughhewitt.com. He links to an AP story indicating that Lockhart called Burkett at the behest of Mary Mapes. He calims that Burkett had advice on how to deal with Vietnam and Swift Boat issues. Didn't "recall" talking about the memos eventhough Mapes had already told him that she had records that might move the story along. If anyone swallows that I have some beachfront property in Nebraska for ya. The Clintonistas have invaded the Kerry camp and it's just beginning. It's not even October yet.

Remember guys, the Kerry campaign focus now is Iraq. The Kerry campaign focus now is the economy. The Kerry campaign focus now is Vietnam. The Kerry campaign focus now is Bush in the Guard. Remember guys, the Kerry campaign focus now is Iraq. The Kerry campaign focus now is the economy. The Kerry campaign focus now is Vietnam. The Kerry campaign focus now is Bush in the Guard. Remember guys, the Kerry campaign focus now is Iraq. The Kerry campaign focus now is the economy. The Kerry campaign focus now is Vietnam. The Kerry campaign focus now is Bush in the Guard....

Forget the weathervane. I think we found a new use for that 60 Minutes stopwatch...

Oh my goodness! A news organization made a mistake about 35 year old memos! The horror! The shock! The indignation!

Scout, the memos are about 35 DAYS old and the "news" organization did not make a mistake. They deliberately ignored compelling information that the memos were fake in order to smear Bush.

Based upon his speech today it looks as if he has merged Iraq and Vietnam. The word surrender comes to mind quite easily. I wonder how he is going to work asking the last member of the US Armed Forces to die in Iraq into his inauguration speech

Supporting the Troops

The following is a speech given by a former marine who served in Iraq. Rob Sarra gave this address on memorial day of 2004:

I am a former Marine Sergeant, and veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. I speak to you today in order to remember those Marines who were killed in action in Iraq last year and this year. I was assigned to the 1st Marine Regiment during the initial combat phase of Operation Iraqi Freedom.On April 8th a day before my company reached Baghdad, we lost our first Marine to enemy fire. PFC G, from Temperance Michigan, was 20 years old and had been in the Marines for 7 months when he was killed by an enemy sniper as our unit fought across the Diayla River 4 miles outside of Eastern Baghdad.

In the ensuing months after the fall of Baghdad, my unit lost 3 marines to accidents. Lance Corporal K from Illinois was incinerated in an ammo dump explosion. On May 19th, another marine was severely wounded when an anti aircraft shell he found went off in his hands. He lost his right eye, disfigured his face, and suffered shrapnel wounds to his chest and legs. On the same day, Sergeant S, from Beaver Dam, Wisconsin, who was a member of my company, drowned when he attempted to rescue the crew of a helicopter that crashed into the Shat-Al Hillah Canal. The 3 crew members on board were killed in the crash. To date, over 790 Americans have lost their lives and countless numbers wounded in a war that hasn't been "won" but is far from being over.

My unit, the 1st marine regiment, left the United States on January 17th, and invaded Iraq on March the 21st. Once we were engaged in combat operations, I felt confused. We were not fighting Iraqi regular forces, but Saddam’s Fedayeen. At one point, we were calling the war "Desert Nam". We were fighting guerrillas who wore black clothing, carried AK-47s and did not adhere to our "rules". On the highway north to Baghdad we were engaging and slaughtering civilians mistakenly due to the Fedayheen and their tactics. I found myself and several of my fellow marines asking ourselves "what are we doing? Where are the WMD's? Who are we fighting?"

We were told in the outset that Iraq was an imminent threat to the United States. Some marines felt that this war was payback for September 11th. Some marines felt that we were defending our way of life. This wasn't true. How is it that if Iraq was such a threat, their own troops couldn't stop us from reaching their capital in three weeks? We never found any WMD's or signs of battlefield chemical weapons. We did however, find hundreds of caches of discarded weapons and an army throwing away their uniforms for civilian clothes so they could escape certain death and return to their homes and families. We found that once we got to Baghdad, we had no exit strategy. Some of us wondered how we were going to get back out of Iraq when we had bypassed towns teeming with guerrilla fighters. Did they expect us to fight our way out?

The supply problems that everyone talks about during the war were not what they seemed. In past conflicts, many American combat units such as the 101st Airborne at Bastogne in WWII and the 1st Marine Regiment at the Chosin Reservoir in Korea, have been much worse off supply-wise in combat than we were. Yes it is true that we were down to one MRE a day for 2 weeks. The fact is that we were outrunning our supplies and those supply columns were being hit by guerrillas. The only supply problem I saw was before we crossed the border.

My platoon was short on batteries for our night vision equipment. I personally went to a nearby Army camp and bought several cases of AA batteries with the platoon commanders money from a store on base. Hardware used for mounting night vision goggles on our helmets were also in short supply. We traded a few cartons of cigarettes with another Marine unit for 50 helmet mounts. Most importantly, there was a lack of enough ballistic plates for our body armor. Prior to crossing the border, we were told that the plates will be coming up to us as soon as they got in country. These plates never got to us. Nevertheless, senior marines were giving up their back ballistic plates to give to junior marines that had none at all. I did this, and saw my platoon sergeant and platoon commander do the same. The three of us, and several others in the platoon went into combat with only one plate in the front of our vests, and we were frontline infantry.

The only time during the war that made any sense to us was our arrival in Baghdad. People cheered in the streets, we were thrown cartons of local cigarettes, children gave us flowers which we wore on our body armor. We all felt that this justified what we had gone through. We felt we had a purpose as we heard stories from Iraqi civilians about what Saddam did to his own people. A dictator and regime had been toppled and the people of Iraq were free of his reign. We felt as if it had all been worth it. By late April, we would move south for stabilization operations and would turn from war-fighters into humanitarians.

Once we began Stabilization Operations in a town called Al Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad, things seemed to be going well. The Iraqis were generally happy that we were there. We rebuilt schools, got the power back on, and reestablished the police and fire departments. Unfortunately, as we stayed longer, that sentiment wore off. The waves and smiles we got when we first moved in were disappearing quickly and we all had the feeling that we had overstayed our welcome. When we were told we would be going home, missions and excuses kept popping up and we were kept in country with no certain end in sight. This was a cause for severe frustration on all levels in my unit, as well as for our families at home. We felt as if we had done our part and as combat troops.

I am not, in any way, angry at the Marine Corps or the military. I volunteered to join, and volunteered for the infantry knowing that at some point in my career I may, realistically, go into combat.The Marines I served with did remarkable things under extreme conditions. Our leaders were strong and the Marines themselves did what was asked of them and upheld their reputation of being the best. We got by with very little. We improvised, adapted, overcame and showed the world that we could be both aggressive and compassionate.

Currently elements of the 1st Marine Regiment and several of my close friends are back in Iraq. They have been given responsibility of the Al Anbar province which includes Fallujah. 2nd Bn 1st Marines fought for 3 weeks in the siege of Falluja and lost several Marines to enemy action.The last elements of their Regiment returned from Iraq only 8 months ago.

Last week, I received an email from a Marine friend of mine about Echo Co. 2/1. This account of action in Fallujah is from SGT GRIT, a website dedicated to Marines. The following is an account from 1st Sgt S of Echo Co. 2nd Bn 1st Marine Regiment. Currently Co. "E" 2/1 has 40 wounded and 3 KIA's.....wild huh?...mostly small shrapnel and eardrums, but had a Marine lose an arm and a leg ...This place is too messed up to explain...We have been living in the northwest of Fallujah for 3 weeks now....Actually living in some homes we confiscated...across from us about 300 yards is the downtown area of Fallujah...We are shot at every night. We are mortared a lot as well...We always are firing back with our snipers and/or machine guns....It's almost surreal. We could be playing cards. we hear gunshots and booms. we keep playing....no big deal. I have to tell you about our gun battle today. We started receiving sniper fire from this Mosque/tower...then some bad guys threw grenades at our pos. on our roofs...Marines got wounded and Marines fought the enemy close in. Frags were thrown and massive 5.56 was used in close proximity. I've never been shot at so much in my life. AK's were firing at us 10 yards away....I would fire my M-16 with one hand while I was running back and forth....OH MY GOD>>> I think Carl Lewis would be proud of my speed getting our wounded boys loaded up for medevac. Anyway, 8 wounded today, 1 died....I actually broke down and had the chaplain say a prayer while I hugged this guys head....He was a good marine.....I am back in the rear tonight to rest my hurt back and rest my brain....NEVER have I had so much blood around me....I take these boys too personal sometimes.....We ARE the purple Heart Company..152 strength, 40 WIA, 3 KIA...1/3 of the company remaining.

Approximately 2 weeks ago, I heard from another friend of mine at Camp Pendleton, that 250 Marines were deployed to Iraq in order to replace Marines that were killed and wounded during the siege of Fallujah

1st Sgt S’s Marines are now out of Fallujah, but are still in the Al Anbar province. Their estimated time of return to the US is supposedly in the next 5 months. Although these Marines are due for rotation, more Marines are being deployed as we speak.

Today is an important day for the families of the fallen servicemen from not only Iraq, but all the past conflicts our country has been involved in. The main thing I ask everyone to leave here with today is this: No matter if you agree or disagree with the war in Iraq, have a loved one overseas or not, we must support all those who are currently deployed, and those who have fought and died for our freedomto speak out as we do today.

I would like to conclude by thanking VVAW, Barry Romo, and Military Families Speak Out for the opportunity to speak today.

Thank you.

Operation Truth

Kerry's speech today hammered Bush over Iraq.It hasn't turned out to be a walk in the park,duhhh.This clown believes in conflict resolution and making happy with our enemies.

wake up.

Soldier Speaks Out

Scout, and the point of your valiantly demonstrating your copy-and-pasting skills was? Oh, apparently none beyond a lame appeal to emotion, since you didn't actually bother to say why you were pasting that speech. Not to mention that it's got nothing to do with the topic of Tim's post, so that's two strikes against you. Watch out for Andrea, she'll stomp all over you for your two-bit trolling, kiddo.

Though, if you're quick you might still be able to formulate a real reply to the points scoutmaster raised in response to your first post before that happens. How 'bout it?

That was my reply. He asked for my source. You may also read the post I so thoughtfully cut and pasted for you about REAL conditions in Iraq, if you can stomach it.

I was, and still am, replying to the subject of this post.

Did CBS make a mistake? Damn skippy. Did they do it on purpose as some proport? Of course not, they were doing it for a scoop. Want to be outraged about something? Then get real about what's happening in the world.

I can't speak for all those who oppose
Bush, but I can tell you this: I cared not a whit whether the CBS stories about Bush and his National Guard service were true or not. Interesting thing? Not one of the assertions made in that broadcast have been disputed. The only thing that was disputed was the legitimacy of the memos, not the content.

Aren't all of you getting a little sick of tabloid tactics to distract us from real issues? I know I am.

Scout you buffoon — Every one of the assertions has been disproved.

There was no waiting list for the unit Bush joined. In fact it had vacancies because flying those airplanes was freaking dangerous.

Barnes was not even in the USA when he claims he was using his influence to get Bush in, and Barnes' own daughter says he is a liar.

Authenticity not proved — right. And Prime Minister Tojo cannot authenticate the location of Hiroshima, because that blew up in his face, too...
Bush flew hundreds of hours in those dangerous unreliable jets. He far exceeded the basic requirements of his service commitment.

He never "failed to report" for a physical because he wasn't due for one, and left the service with an honorable discharge at a time when the Air Force was happy to have the open slot for a Regular Air Force pilot.

Any other assertions that weren't challenged?

Scout,
it's nice to be passionate about something but what's your point? Do you think that the people that come to this site haven't thought issues through? Obviously Abu Ghraib has affected you, but where's the condemnation of those terrorist low-lifes murdering anyone who comes in their way? Where's the finger-pointing at the UN for not getting its act together on Iraq in the years between 1991 and 2003? Tell us one organisation or government that didn't believe that Saddam had WMD? What about why a professional media organisation deliberately airs false reports? Oh, and why would you vote for Mr Kerry, and don't say because you hate Mr Bush?

Wow, preview really is your friend...

There was no waiting list for the unit Bush joined. In fact it had vacancies because flying those airplanes was freaking dangerous.

Barnes was not even in the USA when he claims he was using his influence to get Bush in, and Barnes' own daughter says he is a liar.

Bush flew hundreds of hours in those dangerous unreliable jets. He far exceeded the basic requirements of his service commitment.

He never "failed to report" for a physical because he wasn't due for one, and left the service with an honorable discharge at a time when the Air Force was happy to have the open slot for a Regular Air Force pilot.

Any other assertions that weren't challenged?

Authenticity not proved — right. And Prime Minister Tojo cannot authenticate the location of Hiroshima, because that blew up in his face, too...

I was, and still am, replying to the subject of this post.

Sorry kiddo, but "throwing up smoke screens by switching to unrelated matters" != "staying on subject". You may want to go back to Debate 101 and brush up a little bit.

Aren't all of you getting a little sick of tabloid tactics to distract us from real issues? I know I am.

Irony, thy name is Scout.

Scout,

I'll look into the info about the two weeks of limited MREs for Sarra's unit. Here's what I found out about the Marine sergeant you cite in a quick search:

In Iraq, Sarra shot a woman and became unnerved. He then refused to go back to the area a few days later to look for a missing Marine. He told his comrades, "Look, we shot up a bunch of civilians. I don't want to put my life and my Marines' lives in jeopardy for a guy who's probably already dead." He was cited for cowardice and then later refused to do a second tour in Iraq. He received an honorable discharge but was made ineligible for reenlistment.

While in Iraq, he also started showing mental problems- he says he started drinking heavily and having violent outbursts. He received therapy. Back stateside, Sarra later formed a peace group called Iraq Veterans Against the War which has, as of September 2, not quite 40 members. One group member says that reading Noam Chomsky has changed his view of American foreign policy. Oh, well.

War is terrible and limb, life, and soul risking; but the alternative to war can be far worse. We are truly blessed to have Good Warriors who know this, and who persevere and endure for the rest of us.

Okay, after reading that, I kind of expect to see Sarra turn up as a Democratic candidate the next time a Senate seat in his home state is on the line. And maybe a run for President a decade or two later.

Unless the Dems have ceased to exist as a major party by that point, of course.

Scout, let's try this, Abu Ghraib ! Abu Ghraib !! Abu Ghraib !!! Halliburton ! Halliburton !! Halliburton !!!

Bush lied, terrorists died.

Now, doesn't that feel better?

Scout lied, little girls cried.

Good to see Tim Blair has his priorities in the right place. Such astonishing consistency deserves to be highlighted. After all, people who rely upon fake documents in major broadcasts (such as the State of the Union address) ought to resign, oughtn't they?

Next up: why Mark Latham should resign for throwing refugees off a boat.

And we do have to wonder about the authenticity of Tim Blair, given that there's a substantial inconsistency between his treatment of Rather and Bush. The principles just don't match up at all.

substantial inconsistency

And yet another lefty engages in assertion-without-evidence in order to distract from the subject at hand. Care to elaborate, or did you just pass through to fling some DU-approved feces around?

And Scout will be right with us to condemn ahem's use of the well-known tabloid tactic of making an ad hominem attack on the messenger, I'm sure.

ahem :
You mean the fake documents supplied by a self-confessed French Agent about Niger? I thought that particular furphy had been laid to rest alongside the grave of the plastic turkey.

Hint : Try searching for the word "Niger" in the SOU speech. Or doing some research. Try going to The Command Post sometime - one of the handful of blogs accredited to both the Democrat and Republican conventions. And to which the odd Australian (and sometimes a very odd Australian) contributes.

Nice try at throwing the thread off-topic though. After all, none of this matters, not 9/11, not the dead or the decapitated, not Bali, not Mark Latham, not even Dan Rather's creative journalism, to you it's all about Bush, right?

Scout

I lost one mate in a thing called the Blackhawk disaster and had another head injured and blind from an ASLAV rollover. In fact, I was the Duty Officer at my Regiment when the call came about my mate's accident. The next day my CO announced to my Regiment that my mate had been killed, which was wrong. And that was peacetime training accidents - military service takes a toll, both for the individual and the family and friends. I am no longer in the service because of the injuries I received in peacetime training. That is what service is all about.

Who is responsible for these tragedies? Some would argue that the individuals are. Some argue individual Officers in the chain of command who failed to resource or train the soldiers correctly. Some argue the public, becuase they failed to make Defence a Nationmal issue before East Timor and Sep 11 a vote winner and hence a funding issue.

Get a fucking life you stupid civilian arsehole. I doubt you would make a good Cub, let alone a Boy Scout or a real recon scout.

Scout, cutting and pasting entire articles in here is a bannable offense. Do it again and I will ban your IP.

I've just got back from holiday (Hamilton Island).

When not on the beach or in the pool the kids played Pajama Sam on my laptop. At first I thought he must be some kind of blogger - he saves the world from the scourge of evil and anarchy while wearing his pajamas ...

The titles of the games were great too:
"No Need to Hide When Its Dark Outside"
"Life is Tough When You Lose Your Stuff"
"Thunder and Lightning arent so Frightening"
"You are What You Eat From Your Head to Your Feet"

scoutmaster, I'd like to know your source for info about Robert Sarra. Every account I read of him stated "he says, he once fired his M-16 at a black-cloaked old woman who failed to stop when she was told. Instead of a suicide bomb, the bundle she carried to her death held only bread, tea, and a white flag."

No, I don't buy into the "war is dirty business but look at the alternative" line of reasoning. The alternative was not declaring war on a country which was not an imminent threat to us, as we were told.

As for WMD, ever hear of Iran-Contra? Ask Donald Rumsfeld about weapons. After all, he was sent there by Ron Reagan right before we began selling Iraq helicopters which were then used to gas Iranians. He knew what they had then, but Hussein was American backed at the time, so it didn't matter. Point is, there were no WMD found. They were not an imminent threat. It's worse there now than when we started.

For the assertions I am not staying with this thread, well, I'm answering the questions asked of me in posts here.

As for veterans opposing war, there are many organizations with many members, and even more blogs. Some of them have been shut down, some soldiers are told to shut up. Many more potential members are still in country as their service gets extended time and again.

Operation Truth has many accounts from soldiers who served there. Also, I posted an interview from an NCO with 20 years of service who spoke candidly about his experiences. No one mentioned that post.

All I'm saying is this- we are spending too much time trying to discern what Bush and Kerry were doing during Vietnam and not enough time on the issues that are affecting us today.

CBS could have made their apology a lot more concise and truthful by just saying 'We regret getting caught'.

You know anything called Operation Truth will probably be anything but...

Back to Rather and C-BS...the most amusing thing about this is that their hatred for Bush & Co was what made them get careless. Its almost amusing (if it weren't so serious) to watch Rather & Co scrambling to save face.

No, I don't buy into the "war is dirty business but look at the alternative" line of reasoning. The alternative was not declaring war on a country which was not an imminent threat to us, as we were told.

Idiot.

Why do the idiots of the world keep latching onto the "we were told Iraq was an imminent threat" lie when anyone who was paying attention remembers Bush saying "We cannot wait for the threat to become imminent"?

It's like they live in a fricking fantasy world.

Scout,

The source I cite on Sarra is a leftist article written in support of Sarra the protester. But there are other similar pieces on Sarra by the Dems, Greens and anti-war activists. Just Google.

Let's try again on that Sarra link

C'mon on now Robert, donchya know they have their handy talking points at the ready, typed up back in 1972, or 3.. Dan never confirmed that..

This part kills me:

After all, he was sent there by Ron Reagan right before we began selling Iraq helicopters which were then used to gas Iranians.

You got definitive proof of that, Scouty boy? AMERICAN helicopters were used, were they? In the book written by Ken Timmerman, "The Death Lobby: How the West armed Iraq", it was cited extensively that it was RUSSIAN helicopters that were used to deliver those chemicals.

There's no link I can find to that particular passage in his book, but I can assure you I noted it more than a few times to counter lefties who claim we a) provided the chemicals/chemical weapons via Rumsfeld or b) provided the transport. If you have definitive proof that it was OUR helicopters used, please do. Otherwise, STFD and STFU, you lying sack of shit.

Scout, we are not paying attention to what Bush or Kerry did 30 years ago. We are paying attention to what CBS just did--possibly in collusion with the DNC or the Kerry campaign. There is a huge difference.

Lydia...no need to be nasty, darling. Here you go:
National Security Archive
Iraqgate

jack...now, wait a minute, how did this become complicity on the part of one party or another? If anything, I find it unusual that bloggers sat and typed duplications of these memos out to prove they were false. Why? Just a hunch? Why weren't all the documents we have from Bush's time in service go through the same scrutiny? Or did someone already know they were false and set about trying to make the Kerry camp look like accomplices? Point is nothing in the memos has been disputed, despite what some would like to pretend.

scoutmaster, I tried your second link, many times...I can't seem to open the page. Is it my server? I've seen the data on Sarra. He seems sincere to me, and he's not the only one who tells similar stories. So we can sit and dispute the validity of every single Marine who served in Iraq or we can acknowledge that food supplies were scarce at times, many soldiers did with Flak jackets instead of body armor and many times, soldiers were forced to buy or trade supplies with Iraqi national or other units becasue they couldn't get them. Or I can get you more links with similar details.

Robert Crawford- well, it's certainly within your rights to believe I live in LaLa Land. How bout you read this and tell me who's in denial?

Oh, and Andrew? Operation Truth is a collection of stories of their experiences and blogs from soldiers now in Iraq and those who've just come from there. You really ought to check out a link before you debunk it blindly.

Huh...interesting that no one here has made disparaging statements about them or the interview I posted earlier with the high ranking NCO.

You know what, Scout? I'm tired of you. You've had your way with this comment thread long enough. Good bye, Mr. Scout.

Uh, just for the record, I couldn't find anywhere in either of those two links where it specifically said AMERICAN helicopters were used to deliver those chemical weapons on Iranians.

One mentioned Iraq's interest in our helicopters, and the other showed a document discussing whether to sell or not, but neither mention anything about HOW, much less if, they were used, which was my beef with your statement in the first place.

Scout asserted that American helicopters were used to deliver chemical weapons on Iranians, which was a lie. Flat out.

Cheerio