September 09, 2004
BLAST KILLS THREE
Three people are reported dead following a bomb blast outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta. Updates to follow.
UPDATE. The toll now stands at five:
There are now reports of at least five people dead and more than 50 wounded.
The explosion in Rasuna Said Street was heard five kilometres away and thought to be on a scale with the blast that killed 12 at the Marriott hotel in Jakarta in August 2003.
Metro TV in Jakarta reported that the plume from the blast was seen to go high into the air, blowing out windows in the 15-storey Wasma 89 Graha Sampoerna building next to the Australian embassy, and damaging other buildings in the area.
UPDATE II. Both Australia and the US recently issued travel warnings:
September 7, 2004
This Travel Warning updates security threat information for Indonesia, alerts American citizens to security concerns regarding identifiably western hotels and reminds travelers of the ongoing terrorist threat for Indonesia. The Department of State continues to recommend that Americans defer all non-essential travel to Indonesia. This supercedes the June 16, 2004 Travel Warning for Indonesia.
UPDATE III. Toll now increased to six. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer is on his way to Jakarta. Only minor injuries reported among embassy staff.
UPDATE IV. Via Fairfax, the first photographs. This appears to show embassy staff helping evacuate the injured.
UPDATE V. Alexander Downer: "It is clearly a terrorist attack, it was outside the Australian embassy, you would have to conclude that it was directed towards Australia."
UPDATE VI. The Jakarta Post claims eight dead. News Ltd reports 99 injured.
UPDATE VII. Hanyu in comments: "I live in Hong Kong and I've already had several Indonesian friends on the phone to apologise. One was crying, asking why people would target Australia. Australia, she said, why Australia?! This is madness! She is, by the way, a human rights activist in Aceh and knows more than a little about atrocities, bomb blasts and death. I'm also getting text messages from Indonesia that express complete and utter disbelief."
UPDATE VIII. Location of the blast.
UPDATE IX. Opposition leader Mark Latham will receive a full briefing on the attack, at John Howard’s invitation. Opposition foreign affairs spokesman Kevin Rudd will travel with Alexander Downer to Jakarta.
UPDATE X. Indonesian President Megawati Soekarnoputri has cancelled engagements and is returning from Brunei.
UPDATE XI. Two of the dead were security guards.
UPDATE XII. Expert's view: The attack aimed to disprupt Indonesian elections.
UPDATE XIII. Police officer Katmadi: "This bomb seems to be bigger than the Marriott one. There are so many victims."
UPDATE XIV. A Reuters chronology of major bomb attacks in Indonesia since 2000. Total dead (not including today’s atrocity): 255.
UPDATE XV. Jakarta-based Australian journalist Chris Holm, interviewed by the Ten Network, summarises local reaction: "These people are terrorists. We must kill them."
UPDATE XVI. The Department of Foreign Affairs provides this number for anyone with concerns for Australians in Jakarta: 1300 555 135
UPDATE XVII. Malaysian authorities believe Azahari Husin, a British-trained engineer suspected of earlier attacks, may be responsible: "He has the expertise to manufacture the explosives required for a bombing of this scale."
UPDATE XVIII. Prime Minister John Howard: "This is not a nation that is going to intimidated by acts of terrorism."
UPDATE XIX. Labor leader Mark Latham: "The terrorists responsible for this attack are evil and barbaric and must be dealt with as harshly as possible."
UPDATE XX. ABC TV says eleven Indonesians are confirmed dead.
UPDATE XXI. Reader Geoffrey Gold, an Australian businessman based in Indonesia, writes: "The Jakarta bombing is a terrorist atrocity against the Indonesian people. The Australian Embassy is positioned on a busy ten-lane boulevard in central Jakarta. It is well-protected with a high wall along the pavement with its building well back from the fence. A police truck and road barriers permanently reduce the service road outside the embassy to one lane to prevent parking in front. IMO a bomb attack on the embassy would require a suicide bomber. But, even then, the main blast area had to be roadside thereby guaranteeing that all serious casualties were police, security staff and passers by. The blast area though blew out the windows of the embassy and about eight high rise office buildings alongside and opposite and there would surely be many hundreds of people cut by the flying glass."
Posted by Tim Blair at September 9, 2004 04:02 PM
Let me guess. It's John Howard's fault.
I live in Hong Kong and I've already had several Indonesian friends on the phone to apologise. One was crying, asking why people would target Australia. Australia, she said, why Australia?! This is madness! She is, by the way, a human rights activist in Aceh and knows more than a little about atrocities, bomb blasts and death. I'm also getting text messages from Indonesia that express complete and utter disbelief.
First Bali, now this! Terrorist attacks cannot be treated as a criminal matter; it's past time we invaded Indonesia.
We could use those new "most lethal in the region" cruise missiles announced a few weeks ago...
If it has not happened already, it will take at most half an hour for Latham to say that this is a result of Australia's involvement in Iraq.
As ever, the fact that the Bali attacks were well before Iraq will be ignored.
Not that any of that will help the poor bastards targeted by the mullahs ..
I suppose the media will portray the murdering bastards as "freedom fighters"!
Anteve is reporting that one of the victims was an Embassy security guard.
Rupiah slides to 9,390 against the greenback after explosion.
Hanyu -- pls keep updates coming. Much thanks.
Why do they hate us ?
Surely we have really, really offended them for them to do such a thing.
We MUST apologise now, and offer restitution before they get really angry.
I vote we offer Bob Brown, Alison Bronowski, the entire Green Party, Carmen Lawrence and the editorial staff of the Age ... there you go JI - have fun, no sending back ...
Jakarta Post now saying 8 dead.
First media commentator to suggest that Howard is 'pleased' by the timing gets a free smack in the face.
My sincerest sympathies to the families of the victims.
Can I be first to blame this on Mark Latham? Or has Ruddock beaten me to it?
It's been a bad week for Indonesians who want a free and democratic country. Yesterday saw the death of one of the country's most outspoken human rights campaigner, Munir. He died on board a Garuda flight to Amsterdam. He was 38! Indonesian friends were in shock over his death yesterday, and now they are trying to deal with this.
The Jakarta Post headline now reads at least 8 dead.
My condolences to the victims and their families.
I hope the terrorists burn in Hell.
I have just seen the cover of Time magazine this week,made me upset,I have a boy the same age.What would you do to the dirt that made one of yours look and feel this way.
Preemptive stikes I agree with,Iraq was one ,more should follow.They only understand one thing,lets give it to them.
Preemptive strikes against Indonesia!
Right on Mike T.
Getting it wrong, really wrong: This story was posted on Antara at 10.19am this morning, or about 11 minutes before the bomb blast:
Ad Interim Coordinating Minister for Political and Security Affairs, Hari Sabarno, said ... the US travel advisory for American citizens suggesting them not to visit or postpone their travel to Indonesia was exaggerating. ... "Is it true that there is a terrorist threat ahead of the election ? Let's see whether this is true what the US had been worrying about..."
Whoops, my mistake. The bomb went off at 10.20am. It was posted one minute before the blast.
Antara has posted a story that says: "Indonesian police have assumed that Thursday`s bomb explosion outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta could have come from its guard post."
That is a great picture of the Aussie flag, seemingly undamaged in the blast. I hope it becomes a symbol for you. Australians are a tough bunch. I think the Jihadis see all Westerners as decadent, they 'misunderestimate' us. Kick their asses, Pommy bastards!
Sure, great idea. Let's invade Indonesia. With ten thousand islands in the archipelaego, and sixty thousand troops in the army, we could easily afford to place half a dozen men on every island.
Maybe we could save a few on the smaller ones to give us a few extra for occupying, say, Java.
In other news, I'll give fifty points to the first person to spot the "this is all John Howard's fault in some indirect way" meme in the wild, and one hundred points for the first speculation that Howard actually planned it himself for electoral benefit.
Oh darn. That was fast. One hundred points to Oscar L.
Talk of attacking Indonesia is inappropriate (and I'm pretty sure that "Michael" is one of our regular trolls).
The vast majoity of the victims are Indonesians. The attack was aimed at Australia, but so far no Australian victims have been reported.
Australians and Indonesians both should work against the real perpetrators.
I was going to ask "Which troll will be the first dumb fuck to say this is all the fault of Bush/Howard, or make some snide remark", but unfortunately Michael and Nemesis jumped in to troll before I could put finger to keyboard.
Geez, so if we can't hit Indonesia, what the hell do we need missiles for? New Zealand?
Sympathies to all the families involved. Let's hope all the bastards who did this are caught and penalised within the full force of the law.
So it was like the US Embassy bombings in Kenya/Tanzania. Most of the victims there were locals as well.
At least these terrorists won't be able to get off on the technical legal grounds.
Tim, my thoughts and prayers are with you and all Australians today (and innocent Indonesians, too)!
It's clear the IslamoNazis are trying to hurt your elections before they do ours here in America.
I hope that Ozzies will realize that John Howard is the right man for this time.
May God continue to Bless Australia and may He have no mercy on the murdering Islamist killers!
TimT, treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue is the very policy that brought us 9/11!
(Oops, accidentally channeled Glenn Reynolds for a second there).
Messed that one up, didn't I?
At least these terrorists won't be able to get off on the technical grounds of retrospective laws, like some of the last lot.
I agree that resorting to coarse language is often a strong sign that a person doesn't have a decent argument to put forward.
However, in the case of mindless trolls posting garbage about an outrage like this, I am quite happy to tell Michael to saddle up his horse and fuck right off. You can take Nemesis with you as well.
Did you see anybody on here (except for Michael) trying to make political capital out of this tragedy? No. There may have been expressions of anger or sorrow, but not a single "thats why you shouldnt vote Labor"
In case I havent been clear enough - Fuck. Off.
Points to Tim for asking for his link on troppo to be removed as well. That comment was breathtaking in its callousness.
The Australian is now reporting 99 injuries according to doctors at the hospital. But since bomb injuries vary between minor scratches and whole limbs blown off, it's not a very meaningful number.
One thing I guess we can take away from this, though, is a slightly positive note: JI (or whoever) really has a pretty limited capability for making attacks. These guys _really_ wanted to hit Australia. If these guys could have hit Australia, they would have, but they couldn't, so they tried to hit the Australian embassy. But they couldn't even do any damage to that, so they killed some random folks who just happened to be walking past the embassy.
It's not nice to have fuckheads trying to kill us, but if you're gonna have 'em anyway it's nice to know that they're not very good at it. A half-assed terrorist attack like this one seems to decrease the chances that they're planning a major, well-executed one.
As with every terrorist incident that occurs these days, all I can think of is confused expressions on children's faces, families' lives forever blighted by memories of murder, empty armchairs, redundant plans made by loved ones for tonight: a romantic dinner, a child's school recital, an evening of peace with a good book.
Five, ten, twelve victims? More like a hundred or more.
lets hope that AUSTRALIA does not suffer from, the "SPANISH EFFECT" as a result of this outrage.
WIll the Aussies resist the coming spin and propaganda from the SBS,ABC, SMH et al and rally behind the only leader it has who can effectively confront and not appease Islamic terror ?
As we approach 911 it may well be that this is not the only outrage planned against Australians.
Vigilance is therefore of paramount importance over the next few days and until the elections.
Do NOT let them influence the course of Australian politics !
The Jakarta Post has revised the death toll upwards by one to 9.
To the people on this thread attempting to make political mileage out of the blast or suggesting that we should attack Indonesian - like Michael, Nemesis, bongoman ... (and Ken Parish on his own blog!): none of you are worthy of even wiping the spit from the shoes of any single Indonesian who rang or messaged me today with sincere and heartfelt condolances about this attack. Those messages weren't just to me. They were to all Australians. Within one hour of the blast I had Indonesians messaging to inform me of what was happening and saying how sorry they were. Indonesians in both Hong Kong and Jakarta rang with expressions of sympathy. Each and every one of them see the attacks as a stain on Indonesian culture, identity and politics. There were no 'buts', 'ifs' or other childish qualifications. No political point scoring. Each person simply said sorry.
"lets hope that AUSTRALIA does not suffer from, the "SPANISH EFFECT" as a result of this outrage."
Well, as the Spanish government tried to downplay the Madrid bombings and blame ETA solely for it, they deserved to be voted out of office. It was the worst case of partisan politics I have ever seen. You also kinda forgetting the fact that only 8% of Spainiards supported the war on Iraq according to gallup in 2003. The Spainish government was going to be voted out anyway. Atrocity that it was, the Madrid bombings had a negligible effect on the Spanish elections.
Personally, I'm pretty confident that the Indonesian Government will deliver swift justice. If this was an attack by JI (which it most likely was), then Indonesian Government has no qualms taking them down a peg. And this time, the terrorist laws won't be applied retrospectively, so no legal loophole there.
Reuters is reporting say Indonesia police cheif General Da'i Bachtiar suspect Azahari, a Malaysian bomb maker for Jemaah Islamiah suspected of involvement in both the Marriott and Bali bombings. Blast caused by car bomb and no foreigners reported killed.
I'm with Hanyu. As an Aussie based in Hong Kong I'm only hearing of sorrow and sympathy from everyone, including Indonesians. The point is we are dealing with extremists working in the leadup to a Presidential election in Indonesia and the Aussie election. Extremists, by definition, are the very fringes and are not the mainstream. This is an opportunity for Australia to work with Indonesia as it did so successfully after the Bali bombings.
And it's a reminder that the war on terror never ends.
The Indonesian press is reporting that Hamzah Haz and Hassan Wirayuda (Min of Foreign Affairs) have visited the bomb site.
The other possible silver lining is this will put more pressure on Indonesia to deal with JI and really clamp down on terror in its midst.
Thanks, Tim, for the good updates. Saw it on the wires just now and figured you'd be on top of it.
Kevin: Yeah, these "symbolic" attacks on embassies always manage to kill locals at a 9:1 ratio. I guess when it's all about the symbolism, you don't care that you're actually killing your countrymen.
I'm sorry to hear about this & wish the best for the Australian & Indonesian victims & their families.
OK let's state the obvious first.
The Australian govt should immediately offer medical and policing help to Jakarta.
At least their terror laws are now legal, and we should admit that western pressure on indonesia to use these laws against the Bali bombers was stupid.
You guys who are politicising this event already are dills. that is serving no-ones benifit.
And finally, even though these actions are totally unjustifiable, our government must start to understand why islamic extremists hate us so much. Action can then be taken (and I don't mean bending over backwards for murderers) to minimise the problem in the future. If our political leaders dumb this debate down for political gain and couch everything into a good vs evil paradigm they are not serving anyone interest.
government must start to understand why islamic extremists hate us so much.
Ah, the old "Why do they hate us?".
Islamic extremists hate many people. Many people they've never met. That is part of being an extremist.
1) "though these actions are totally unjustifiable"
b) "our government must start to understand why islamic extremists hate us so much."
No they mustn't. - see a)
You guys who are politicising this event already are dills. that is serving no-ones benifit.
And finally, even though these actions are totally unjustifiable, our government must start to understand why islamic extremists hate us so much. Action can then be taken (and I don't mean bending over backwards for murderers) to minimise the problem in the future.
We've gone over this before: they hate because we live.
My prayers go out to the victims.
"Twelve Iraqis killed in US air strike on Fallujah"
-- including two children. Are they in your prayers, too?
Don't dumb down the debate dave.
We must learn what turns someone into a terrorist. Some people are pushing "its because they born evil" line and that is just a ridiculous argument. How and where are terrorists recruited, and how can recruitment activites be minimised. Despite what the good vs evil people think, terrorism doesn't just happen in a vacuum.
Grow up and stop the simplistic populist nonsense.
I'm not going to attempt to explain my religious beliefs to someone like you, someone who thinks that these two events were somehow related in the manner that they were conducted, someone who will use an event like this to try to gain political points for whatever misguided and trendy views are "in".
I will, however, tell you that I am also praying for you, in the hopes that one day you will have your eyes opened. May you hope that the method by which this occurs isn't a terrorist attacking you or those you hold dear.
are they in yours michael? Is anybody? Do you have any empathy at all - or do you just use other deaths to attack people expressing sympathy over this event?
I will be all for negotiation, and appeasement, and treaties, and whatever the hell else you think works once terrorists learn that their current actions will never get the results they want. If you truly want to find the root of terrorism, all you need to do is look at how the rest of the world would like to treat it -- by pretending it doesn't exist.
Grow up and learn that some problems can't be solved by discussing them into the ground.
Negotiating with somebody, when the only concession they are making is a promise to stop blowing up your citizens, is not a negotiation. It is a surrender.
Yes, Michael, they are in my prayers. Their deaths are the kinds of contradictions that grownups have to deal with in their lives. And they exist because we don't live in a candy floss world where everyone agrees with and loves each other. People who are committed to action, as opposed to those sitting on the sidelines of life carping about what everyone else does, make mistakes and live with those mistakes. I pray that both you and I will never have to make the kind of decision that entails choosing between some deaths and many deaths.
I too would like sometimes to crawl away from the world and hope that everything sorted itself out without the need for actions that hurt, maimed and killed. But that's not where life happens.
Is there any parent on this group who doesn't feel sick at the thought of children killed in bomb blasts and doesn't even for a moment see their own children's faces in the dead? And do any of us really feel we are more worthy of life than those who are killed in Iraq? Or Indonesia? There are choices, and our choice so far has been to cut out the cancer. And whether I agree with it or not, that's what's happening and no amount of complaining to Tim Blair or whining about what a horrible person John Howard is on a blog won't change that.
Enough, already. I've got better things to do than waste my time on this.
My house is 500m from the bomb site. My son is at the Aussie school in Jakarta. To the fellow saying "our government must start to understand why islamic extremists hate us so much." I say "fuck you and all your kind". One of the victims I saw on local TV was a baby in nappies. Lying dead in a Jakarta gutter. Why make any attempt to understand the motivations of these monsters? Grow up you pathetic, naive little cunt.
Sterling work Tim B.
If we are to remain vigilant against the terrorists we need to be constantly informed.
Please, fellow commentators, in this moment of darkness we must remember that we are united as civilised people in our abhorrence of these vile acts. So let us avoid petty bickering and partisan political points scoring.
To paraphrase Kaiser Wilhelm II on the eve of another conflict:
I see not political parties here, only Australians.
The kidnapping in Iraq of Frenchpeople indicate that having an "acceptable" foreign policy isn't enough. After that, it looks like they'll try to influence your domestic policies.
Besides, having an "acceptable" foreign policy would include not helping East Timor.
As for why people become terrorists, I don't really know yet. Many terrorists are rich and have university degrees, so poverty and lack of education doesn't seem like a good explanation. It seems terrorists have extreme ideologies, whether it is communism (PKK, PLO), Islamism (Al-Qaeda, Hamas, JI) or racial seperatism (IRA, Tamil Tigers).
Jack, you're right - we should be united in this. But the dead are Indonesians, presumably mostly Muslims, so the Kaiser would have been a little off target. He at least was behaving in a rational manner - ie killing his enemies. This is not the situation here.
You have to wonder what they think the purpose of this is. To kill Australians? To intimidate Australians? Failed on both counts. No dead Aussies, and a country consolidated in its opposition and defiance.
Or is it meant as some form of provocation?
I doubt they are that clever. Perhaps they do not think at all.
(PS I'm still waiting for someone to blame Mark Latham. If that makes me a troll, so be it. It is an honourable profession).
Iain asks why such people become terrorists. Could it be that perhaps they have been indoctrinated by Islamic fundamentalism into believing that all infidels are satanic and thus deserve to die? And that terrorism will be rewarded by the services of 72 beautiful naked virgins in paradise?
This ground has been covered comprehensively before, Iain. Why don't you do a little research before displaying your ignorance here.
I feel so sorry for those who have been murdered.They woke up this morning,kissed their loved ones goodbye and won't be coming home tonight for their wives,husbands,fathers,mothers or children.Today my thoughts are only for them.
All right, that's it. I have banned both Nemesis and Michael for their trolling. Both of you have revealed yourself to be nothing more than opportunistic, callous scum who only care about calling attention to yourselves. Your own countrymen have been targeted by terrorists and children were killed, and all you can think of to do is run to this blog and try to hijack the comment thread on it. Lowest of the low.
Now go to Parrish's (the jerk who made the stupid post linked above) blog and whine, as I am sure you will.
Sorry, Tim. But I just couldn't stand to see these... creatures trying to make some sort of political capital out of this atrocity.
Australia's very own Fifth Column, SBS Television, doesn't appear to have dreamed up a suitable appeasing euphemism for the perpetrators of the Embassy bombing yet. But it's still doing its little bit for the bloody bastards of Beslan - they're not terrorists, they're 'fighters' to the fellow travellers at SBS. Not much of a jump to 'freedom fighters' is it?
wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
How sad of Parish to make the comments he did. his thoughts belie his own selfishness in feeling that now, the liberals may have some sort of advantage.
To whine and blame criticisms on 'right wingers' and 'enemies' is immature and shows a complete failure to accept responsibility for what was said.
Among those lives lost would have been those amongst the poorest of Jakarta. Mr. Parish, your thoughts should lie with them and their grieving families.
Daily Telegraph has been using the word "terrorist" for the Chechnyan "militants". Let's hope they use it here too.
and Jock Strappi cares because?
I'd just like to take a second to express my appreciation to the Spanish government.
Thanks a fucking lot you pricks.
Thanks for putting words into my mouth david, did I mention treaties, appeasement, or negotiations? not one bit ,so an apology for verballing me is appropriate.
Jean luc. bidet; You are simply assuming all terrorists are acting on a very basic level with the aim of getting to heaven for virgins. What about the ones striving for islamic states? What about those seeking revenge? they do have other motivations as well. When you simplify their motives like to the tired old "virgins" argument you have absolutely no chance of preventing recruitment for their cause in the future.
i just hope our intelligence agencies are slightly brighter than you.
For those that can access periodicals in some fashion:
‘The Terrorism to Come’ by Walter Laqueur
Policy Review, issue 126, August/September 2004, pp. 49–64
"In this article, Walter Laqueur, the co-chair of the International Research Council at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies, examines the modern phenomenon of terrorism. He notes that, while the latest bout of international terrorism has created endless debate, the subject has long roots that are frequently ignored in contemporary discussions. Shallow understanding leads to alluring but largely erroneous claims that all terrorism has its roots in poverty, unemployment, backwardness and inequality, and that terrorism is, at root, essentially a social or economic problem. Laqueur suggests that, while poverty and youth unemployment may provide the social and psychological climate in which some forms of extremist religious belief may flourish, the threat of terrorism comes from a much broader range of nationalist, ethnic, religious and tribal conflicts for which there are no simple solutions."
Good post stan, but from that small snippet it looks like Laqueur doesn't want to acknowledge that many nationalistic, ethnic, tribal, and religious conflicts are fought because of poverty and inequality.
Without seing Laqueur full article may I be so bold to suggest that terrorism has its roots in all eight of the factors he mentions, many of which are overlapping.
Hey and I'm not condoning it, just trying to minimise it in the future, and could I suggest that those promoting the "good and evil" shit are being worse than useless.
I would not have believed the Sydney Morning Herald could get any more disgusting, but - believe it or not! - it is running a poll on who this is likely to help in the election.
OK, Iain let's consult one of the Bali Bombers for his nuanced justification for killing a couple of hundred people:
"Australians, Americans, whatever -- they are all white people. The Sari Club was a place of adultery. It was a place of sin so it deserved to be demolished." - Ali Imron
That's unfair random using the actual words of terrorist. Ian doesn't wont to think about the victims which by the way Iain is what this thread is about.
Hey and I'm not condoning it, just trying to minimise it in the future, and could I suggest that those promoting the "good and evil" shit are being worse than useless.
Hey, and could I suggest that you are an ignorant moron that has no grasp of human nature, one that willfully ignores any facts that don't fit into your narrow worldview? Your posts, at any other time, would be considered foolish. Making them now, in the wake of even more attacks designed to kill for no obvious reason or benefit, defies the English language for a term that describes your intent sufficiently.
I'm sure Nazi Germany had a perfectly valid reason for their war against the Jews, huh?
P.S. No apology is, or ever will be, forthcoming.
The slime who commited this,well what do you call it?I could swear and cuss,but what is the point.They must be hunted down,rounded up and pounded.
They have worn out their welcome on planet Earth.But who is to blame,in the scheme of things?
bastards. my condolences to the people of indonesia and australia.
i hope these bastards, and those who support them, are hunted down and exterminated.
How to win friends and influence people.Kill your own people.
Iran must be destroyed.If they have their way we will be living in caves.
Yeah sure Ali Imron is a mass murdering criminal, but wouldn't it be benificial to understand the process that took him from a normal person to someone who hates "Australian, americans whatever-they are all white people".
It doesn't happen overnight .
David do you really believe that these attacks "are designed to kill for no obvious reason or benifit"? These attacks are for a variety reason eventhough niether of us believe they are valid.
Until we understand the mindset of terrorists, and the process of how people become terrorist, we can never minimise the problem and more innocent people will suffer.
To those people who think we should bomb Indonesia/Iran, keep sticking you head in the sand pretending terrorism occurs in a vacuum, and that it can be defeated through military strength alone.
The bomb first and think later strategy has been an absolute failure.
Until we understand the mindset of terrorists
We understand them. You don't. Ali Imron is a sociopath. A psychotic madman.
Did we have to understand Hitler's motviation to fight him?
Congratulations Iain. You've got a promising future as an appeaser for terrorists. They'll never thank you personally but...you've gotta understand where they're coming from...
Peace in our time!
Iain, my point was that the obvious cause of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism is Islamic fundamentalism. Is that really so hard for you to comprehend? If so, why?
Also a failure have been the illiterate idiot commentators who think they can emerge from their self-engrossed slime to stride the world stage of international relations and impress others with their trite, pathetic and wildly wrong estimations of what has actually happened.
The above is one, no idea who it is, and there are many others.
Because Iain is another well-meaning, pampered Westerner who absolutely refuses to believe that there are people out there, who are, for lack of a better word, evil.
Some people want nothing more than to cause death and destruction. It's not a means to an end. The means IS the end.
Three years from 9/11 and people still struggle with this concept...
Some people are pushing "its because they born evil" line
No one is pushing this here. That comes from your own vivid imagination.
Once more, my three step plan:
1. Find out who did this.
2. Make sure.
3. Kill them.
Understanding their motivation is only of interest if it helps in carrying out this plan.
fascinating commentary over at chris shiela's lefty website especially from clairvoyant commentator nostradamus:
"Spain is a European country which for most of its recent history was governed by social-democratic policies. They are also much more urbanized in population while the Australian electorate, especially in the regions, is intrinsically conservative."
As a regional orstralian i apologise for my role in this attrocity !! I acknowledge the intrinsic supremacy of all europeans!! I acknowledge the supremacy of 'social democratic' nations which have been ruled by fascists / communists / dictatorships for large parts of the last century!!!! I also acknowledge that a more regionally based society such as most of Europe is really more urbanised despite this being untrue as long as it fits my argument !!!
Boy is that idiot Iain is a joke.We know who is responsible for this mass murder,we know,we know son.And we are going to get them.Plain and simple.No matter how long it takes.Military,social,weddings,parties and out door events.Iran has some serious questions to answer.
Ummm...doesn't something like 85% of Australia's population live in major cities?
Oh I see what they mean though. The majority of words in our language don't end in a vowel, which = backwater yokel with no appreciation of the y'artz.
I'm back in my place now, eurotrash.
For Iain and other "root-cause"ers, here's a link. Oliver Kamm explains it far better than me.
Who said " Westerners love life,while we love
death" (or something) similar?
That's not a political statement.
It's not a statement of rational greivance.
It's not the statement of someone you can
discuss options with.
It's a physcopathic death cult.
It doesn't need rational causes.
Imaginary ones will do and we have
seen their kind before in the likes of
Manson,Jones,the plastic bag and nike brigade etc.
They love death. That says all you need to know
about what sort of a future they represent.
Like cancer, you don't sit around talking how
you have it.
You start radical surgery to cut the shit out.
Spain is a European country which for most of its recent history was governed by social-democratic policies.
Well, after 1975, that is. Before that it was ruled by a fascist dictatorship.
Who said " Westerners love life,while we love
It was actually, "They love Pepsi-Cola, we love death."
Same setiments, though.
Iain, the terrorists we are dealing with have already explained, over and over, why they are doing what they are doing. They are driven by Islamist ideologies, and their goals are to install fundamentalist totalitarian Islamic theocracies in, first, all Muslim countries, and then in the rest of the world. They are not at all interested in relieving the burden on the poor, unless you count life itself as a burden. At this point, denial of this fact is willful ignorance on your part and quite frankly I find people like you to be useless.
Andrea: Don't be too hard on Iain, he's just pushing the party line like a good green guard should.
"Hey and I'm not condoning it, just trying to minimise it in the future, and could I suggest that those promoting the "good and evil" shit are being worse than useless."
"Good and evil" indicates that it is a moral question. Are you suggesting that what has happened here is outside that? People getting blown apart on a public street or kids being slaughtered as they flee to safety after a suicide bomber blows herself to bits in front of them is not an issue of "good and evil".
It is exactly that in the sharpest of possible terms. This is not a disagreement about whether green is a nice colour or not. It's about the fundamental right of people to live their lives in peace without crazed lunatics, who for whatever reason despise them, slaughtering them.
Some people don't yet understand the nature of this threat. We live in open societies because in such societies people generally respect the rights of others and that sort of respect enables such societies to prosper. Terrorist actions are easy to perpetrate in such societies given the freedom of movement that is afforded and they are calculated to instill fear and derail all the normal modes of living that generally peaceful society affords.
There is no negotiating with people who do these things. What do we have to gain from such negotiations? All the "benefits" of a protection racket?
These attacks on the west have been going on now for over 30 years. They are now striking right at home or very close to it. The west has to be ruthless in hunting down and rooting these people out or the consequences will be dire indeed.
They are adults.
They have brains.
They are capable of independant thought.
The idealogy that the terrorists choose to subscribe to IS evil.
We have to work hard.We have re-think what this war is all about.The old saying that,"The generals are fighting the last war rings true".
You do not have give up liberty in order to wage war upon an opponent.
The British were non-plussed as to how to deal with the U Boat menace.Technolgy,know-how,experience and fortitude got them through it.
Persistence is our most valuable asset.
If we persevere against this scum we will win.
Don't you guys see what is happening?
The Puppeteers are turing you against the peaceful Islamic people.
Think about it!
This is an obvious false flag operation... and you know exactly who is behind most of these operations throughout the world.
I believe there is a good expression for people like him Andrea: useful idiot.
Gee,I thought I was left fieldy.You have out done me son.
Since Iain wants to discuss "root causes" of terrorism, here's my top candidate for the "root cause" of today's massacre: the terrorists committed their heinous acts because we didn't kill them or arrest them first.
That's a "root cause" which is 100% correct. And it also suggests a simple strategy to address the "root causes" of terrorism: kill them before they act.
See, discussing "root causes" can be fun!
As always, America stands with Australia.
Let's kill the bastards that did this. Then resurrect them and kill 'em again.
Root cause: how about the passage in the Quran that says on Judgement Day, the Jews will hide behind trees. But Allah will help out by marking these trees. Then good Muslims can kill them. All of them.
Patook — Actually, it turns out from the Spanish hearings that that was not the case — everyone originally thought, ETA. What followed was an amazing display of political opportunism that continues to this very day, as the incumbent Spanish government has announced it will take no further testimony from Anzar or members of his party.
My sympathies to the Australians and the Indonesians.
Iain, as humans, we can choose between subscribing to good/life/freedom, or evil/death/nihilism.
In the Russian school in Beslan, one of the adults told a terrorist, "We'll give you all the money of the town if you'll let the children go." The terrorist replied, "We did not come here for your money. We came here to die."
Do. You. Get. It?
I'm terribly, terribly sorry. Please let me know if a fund opens up.
Apparently there is a JI training base on the Phillipine island of Mindanao. I would like to see Australian troops assisting the Filipinos in getting rid of it. Problems like this show there is enough for Australia (with its limited resources) to do in its own region. If Howard is returned he should mend some bridges with the Phillipines following recent diplomatic difficulties and see what we can do to help.
terrorism has its roots in poverty, unemployment, backwardness and inequality
Iain, This is utter nonsense. You gloss over Saudi Arabia, one of the richest countries on the planet. They don't even HAVE very many poor people in SA. Yet they bred 15 of the 19 terrorists that caused 9/11.
The same guys who come to the US, go to our colleges on money from oil, and go back to SA to learn how to join the Jihad.
Poverty has NOTHING to do with terrorism. Terrorism is a tool for Islamic fundamentalists, who want to turn the planet into an Islamic planet.
Time to wake up, Iain.
How very sophisticated of Iain to figure out that poverty and inequality are the real causes of terrorism.
You'll notice that Calcutta is the terrorist capital of the world.
Here I was thinking that Saudi Arabia was the real source of terrorism, and you lefties are saying its all about poverty.
I mean, really. If these sorts of statements are not designed to give comfort to the enemy, what are they worth at all?
Bravo to Peter Hartcher for his wise column in the SMH. Nothing but utter contempt for Louise Dodson in the SMH who wrote that the Jakarta bombing is 'good news' for Howard. The Australian media for the most part makes me sick.
Just been writing up some recollections on Australia's battles alongside the poms and yanks in World War II for anyone interested here. Just re-reading through the Damascus victory against the Vichy French... we'll probably be back there fighting the arabs soon - wouldn't surprise me the way jihadists from Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah use Syria to launch their civilian targetting campaigns into Israel and Iraq...
The victims of this attack and their families are in my prayers. To all the Australians and Indonesians here, we are with you in mourning and in hunting down the subhuman filth that perpetrated this cowardly act of terrorism.
The bombing shows again that official Oz agencies have protected themselves well overseas- the only people that suffer are locals- likely Islamic- going about their business.
Also, apologies if already mentioned;
Dont look to "terrorism expert","Dr" Rohan Gunurata for relevent information (as if you would). With searing insight, on the late news tonight, he suggested that if Australia was ever targeted, Sydney would likely be in the firing line.
ps. what are the odds of that flag remaining unscathed.
I sat up when I noticed you said Saudi Arabia was one of the richest countries on the planet.
I dont want to get involved in the poverty and terrorism issue, just to point out Saudis have economic troubles.
This from The Economist in May
"The population has soared since 1980, the high point in the country's GDP per head, without a commensurate growth in national wealth. Income per person has since fallen, by some accounts, from around $20,000 to less than half of that. Unemployment has soared, though no one can agree on a figure—in a country where, as a leading Saudi banker puts it, “We don't have a tradition of statistics.” The government says 8-9%;other estimates range from 13-30%."
Don't bother getting into an argument with tcg, people; I have not lifted the banning restriction against him, and he is not allowed to post here.
Though I will note that "economic troubles" are no more a good excuse for anyone to turn to terrorism than any other excuse.
DAMN!!! Kerry will have to create a Department of Kittens to counter so much negativity in the world!
My condolences for the loss of life.
I don't any longer care why the Islamists hate us. The fact is, they do, and they are not open to reason. Nothing we have done (particularly in the light of our decades of extended friendship, and billions of dollars in foreign aid and oil revenue) justifies this savagery. Therefore, they have lost any right to sympathy or understanding, as far as I'm concerned.
My sincere condolencies.
As I wrote in my blog, if I was Zapatero I wouldn't pick up the phone if caller ID shows a country code of some place around the Pacific.
Islam is the root of the problem. How hard is it to comprehend that. For the sake of political correctness, we don't say it out loud.
Regarding the "root causes" discussions:
There wasn't much lefty hand-wringing and self-examination of what prompted poor white trash like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols to vaporize half a federal building and many of its occupants in Oklahoma City back in the '90s.
We didn't look into coming up with ways to make sure the right-wing nutballs and paranoid militias felt safe to express their views and ease their poverty while attempting to comprehend just how they could become that way.
No, the consensus was that we should prosecute them, jail them, and in McVeigh's case, putting him out of our misery.
Interesting how much we all agree about right-wing terrorism. Unleash some ELFs or JI or al Qaeda violence and the hearts start bleeding. Sometimes literally.
"Interesting how much we all agree about right-wing terrorism."
Ah, Houston, we have a problem. Please, go read about the political spectrum before you go casting relativist speak round here.
I wasn't trying to be relavist. In fact, I was trying to point out the double standards that are involved with a terrorist defined broadly as "right-wing" (McVeigh) and the terrorists defined broadly as "victims of Bushitler" (everyone else).
Nothing will change due to this. Indonesians blame Australia / U.S. for this event and the other bombings. There is no "tolerant Islam". Indo society will do nothing to change the culture that is producing terrorists - it is implicity supported and accepted. Civilian deaths are awful but are members of that society really that innocent? The German and Japanese populations were not innocent for the militant direction those countries took.
You guys are absolutely shameless. Iain has put forward some very valid points for discusion and you hve thoroughly misquoted him on numerous occasions.
Meanwhile you arguments for a bomb Iran approach to go unquestioned. What an intellectually barren wasteland this site is.
Sorry, I hit the post button instead of the preveiw one. Here is that post with the proofreading added.
You guys are absolutely shameless. Iain has put forward some very valid points for discusion and you have thoroughly misquoted him on numerous occasions.
Meanwhile arguments for a bomb Iran approach go unquestioned. What an intellectually barren wasteland this site is.
Steve in Houston, there are no double standards in regards to right wingers like McVeigh.
Because, in case you didn't hear the news, MCVEIGH WAS EXECUTED FOR THE MASS MURDERS IN THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING!
'Scuse me, folks. Ahem.
Steve, the only "inequity" here is that we haven't killed all of the terrorists in the world. If you and your fellow leftoid pukes got out the way, we'd be done sooner.
The Real JeffS:
I think Steve's point was that there were no liberals in a rush to find out exactly what the root causes of McVeigh's actions were. He's simply pointing out yet another aspect of liberal hypocrisy.
Of course, I could be misreading here. If so, I apologize.
Thank you, david, I did just jump in there.
Steve -- if I misread you, my apologies. I'll read this thread more carefully.
Ahem -- Steve in Houston? I did jerk the trigger.
You are correct, the b>left ignores what they define as the "root causes" for "right wing terrorists", but search diligently for anyone else.
In my book, a terrorist is a terrorist, regardless of their place in the political spectrum. Just shoot the bastards.
1. Please accept my remembrance for the dead, and my sincere, heartfelt condolences to their families, and to the wounded, and their families.
2. The .45ACP cartridge was invented for use against just such people as the dangerous lunatics who have done this. May they receive very many of the leaden part of that most excellent cartridge.
"lets hope that AUSTRALIA does not suffer from, the "SPANISH EFFECT" as a result of this outrage."
Oh, there'll be some pathetic creatures running scared and telling everyone it's our fault that the bombing occurred. But that will be a very small minority. I'd say they'll be mostly the village idiots we've rounded up and named "mainstream media" and those old foggies trying to get back into the limelight again like the 2nd class party-host, Richard Woolcroft.
The rest of us know its a fight to the death, literally. And it will be those diseased death cult members who will be wiped out.
As the former President of Indonesia, Abdurrahman Wahid has stated (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/448246.html)on the topic of Islamic fundamentalism, prior to these latest murders: "The bombings and terrorist activity were because of our weak governments that didn't want to take action. Now that the U.S. and Australia have become so angry about terrorism, action is being taken."
I am sure that the current Indonesian Government will do everything in its power to eliminate the low-life bastards who did this, or those scum who are planning more assaults on the good people of Indonesia and its culture.
I also hope that the Indonesians perform a scorched earth policy on the assets of anyone or any village that provides shelter to the filth.
Slim, Iain put forth the argument that we must understand the root causes of terrorism. The problem with that argument is that it is misleading, something that has been pointed out many times over to other people within the blogosphere. It's a dead approach.
"Understanding" works only if both sides agree to it. What Iain (and you) miss is that the Islamofascists don't want to understand us. They want to either influence, dominate, or kill us. There is no other reasons for their tactics and strategy, as applied to terrorism.
Therefore, the "group hug" approach Iain pleads for won't work.
Iain hits upon a truth when he points out the intent of the terrorists to form Islamist states. But I would agree with "understanding" them only in the sense that we must understand how they think. This is an application of military or strategic intelligence, to estimate the enemy's intention, and "head him off at the pass". It doesn't always work....largely because the mindset of terrorist (or even an enemy soldier) is often too different. It requires an understanding of the culture of the enemy.
With terrorism, this is very difficult, because it demonstratably true that terrorists come from all walks of life, and many cultures. The ability to kill and terrorize innocents is not a cultural commonality; it's almost a personality defect, or a mental illness.
Could you imagine yourself creating the situation where bayoneting a child is a desireable tactic? Can you? I can't.
From this, I conclude that the terrorist mind is too alien from "normal" people for a middle ground.
They set the rules, "We will kill and terrorize you!" If we turn those rules around against them, they are the last ones that should be complaining. The terrorists and their apologists.
It is incredibly naive to think the Indonesian government is going to do everything in its power to apprehend the people responsible or stop further attacks. One of the convicted Bali bombers was at a Starbucks with the Chief of Police last week for God's sake!! There was absolutely zero outrage by the Indonesians.
The Real JeffS-
No problem, it's an emotional issue, and sarcasm doesn't translate very well sometimes, especially via pixels and bytes.
And I'm very happy that McVeigh isn't stalking the American heartland any longer.
no it's not naive to believe that the Indonesian government will pull its finger out. It took them some time to stop hiding from the fact that they had dedicated mass murderers amongst their own kind, but since Bali they understand it is an issue that will not go away without a fight.
This latest bombing and the Australian government's commitment to track down the culprits, as voiced on the radio this morning, will only enhance the Indonesian response to get the bastards. There certainly won't be any rest for the Indonesian government, if any was needed, from our government until the scum are eliminated.
The zero outrage from the Indonesians, on one of the Bali Bombers being observed in a coffee shop, may be due to the fact that the bomber was the only one that confessed to being guilty and apologising for his part in the murders. I'm not condoning his jolly, but then I don't know all the facts surrounding the coffee break.
Bet he doesn't get to stroll around in public now.
While i know relations over the years politically with Indonesia haven't been the greatest, this atrocity is as good a time as any to realise that the Indonesian people themselves are not to blame.
Most of the Indonesian people interviewed by tabloids or electronic media have expressed sorrow and offered heartfelt apologies and I thank them. However, maybe we could offer the same in return to them, as it was innocent Indonesians that were killed by this attack.
Thos who want to blame John Howard, you are total fuckwits and know two tenths of fuck-all about world events.
Indonesia are three days away from their own elections and have been warnded by JI they would be targeted with attacks, so forget about laying the blame at Australian authorities...
As Indonesia's Foreign Ministry spokesman Marty Natalagawa said yesterday, "this can't be attributed to any political viewpoint by any government. To do so just gives credability to the terrorists, It's a world problem that we all have to face. We cannot negotiate".
Those blaming Howard might want to remember that Islamic terrorists hate as first and foremost because we are non-muslim.
Understand what makes them terrorists!!! WHAT THE FUCK???
If indeed this attack was orchestrated by Dr Azahari Husin, then tell me what we have done to piss him off Iain???
The prick studied here in Australia in the '70's and had no beef with us then. It's claimed after his wife fell sick he turned to radicals, JI, because of his grief..boo fucking hooo, get over it.
I hate their beliefs too but I don't blow shit up to get my point across you pathetic imp.
These pricks hate their own people more than they hate us and their is hardly a country in the world that isn't on their shit list, including ALL Islamic countries and their governments.
There's a thing called study and you could surely do with some...
The callous attack in Jakarta on human innocents sickens me. I can only think with sadness of the wonderful lives lost because some facists want to foist their hateful religios zealotry on the rest of the World.
Some in the West are, I think, secretly impressed with the terrorists' actions. These actions are so outlandish, and so removed from our expectatiton of how people in civilised societies that the reaction of many a Western liberal/lefty whilst not one of approbation is one of secret admiration. I suppose you could sum up the LL approach as follows: "Wow, these guys are prepared to act so forcefully to get what they want and in doing so do not hesitate to put themselves outside the law of civilised nations. They must really beieve strongly in their cause, and have some damn good reason for acting as they do." Hence, we get the "root cause" and/or blame-the-victim response so often favoured by the LL commentator.
Those who espouse the "root cause" doctrine remind me of those people who say that a woman who wears a short skirt is partially to blame if she gets raped. Even if were the case that a woman's provocative clothing led to a rape, that would be no excuse for the rapist. Some acts are evil and cannot be justified by any provocation whatsoever. If the LLs actually had any real education or knowledge of moral philosophy and law, they would understand that provocation can only be used as a defence in very rare cases.
Yeah, The Bombings in Russia have nothing to do with a ten year war in Chechnya, suicide bombings in Isreal have nothing to do with the fact that Palistine has been occupied for more than 30 years, terror attacks in Iraq have nothing to do with the fact their country is being occupied, and September 11 has nothing to do with the US's foreign policy.
So what if I've had a frontal lobotomy. these are my opinions and I say bomb all Muslims back to the stone age.
Well, your bit about the frontal lobotomy sure rings true.
You need to "know all the facts" before you say a mass murderer should actually remain in prison? Oh, but he said sorry? Are worlds are far apart evidently. Again, you think the Indonesian government is serious because they made public statements condemning terrorism and that they will fight? Again . . . naive, or misunderstaning of Indonesia. Most Indonesians blame the US for Bali, Jews for 911, and the government cannot take any harsh stance against any muslims (terrorists or not) because the people don't want it. People are not outraged in Jakarta over this bombing and never have been over the previous bombings. Don't assume Indonesians think like you and have the same cultural values.
Paul D, You are an idiot. "Most Indonesians blame the US for Bali, jews for 911 and the govt can't take any harsh actions against any Muslims because the people don't want it."
After spending 8 months in Indo, I can safely say, this is the stupidest post I have ever seen on speensville, and believe me, you are up against some pretty stiff competition.
You know nothing. I have lived in Indonesia for six years. Your response is pathetic, living up to the worst stereotype of the internet.
. . . . and there isn't a political risk consultancy, brokerage report, etc. in Indonesia that would disagree with the view I put forth about Muslim views in Indonesia.