June 29, 2004


Reader Ayad writes:

I hope you had the chance to see the movie Fahrenheit911.

If you did not, please go see it. I will pay for you and your family.

I only had to read a few of your so called views; I think you are an idiot, Oh! An ignorant idiot. Just like most of your friends at Fox news.

My name is Ayad, I live inOhio. Please email me so I can pay for you and your family to see Fahrenheit911.

If you did see it, then I hope your now more INFORMED>>>>


UPDATE. Ed Koch, Jonah Goldberg, and Mark Steyn on Michael Moore. Steyn writes:

I can understand the point of being Michael Moore: there's a lot of money in it. What's harder to figure out is the point of being a devoted follower of Michael Moore. Apparently, the sophisticated, cynical intellectual class is so naïve it'll fall for any old hooey peddled by a preening opportunist burlesque act.

UPDATE II. "It's been extremely difficult to get a full transcript of the Michael Moore movie," complains Andrew Sullivan. "So here's a thought: why doesn't some enterprising blogger take a tape recorder to a screening, transcribe the narrative, and post it? Then it's a fiskathon." In Malaysia on the weekend I hit every pirate DVD outlet I saw (there were lots) in the hope of buying an illegal Fahrenheit 911 copy (no profits for you, Mikey!). One store knew of a pirate version, but claimed it was of such poor quality it couldn’t be sold.

Maybe it was the director’s cut.

Posted by Tim Blair at June 29, 2004 04:59 PM

Ayad, please send me some cash so that my wife, my six children and me can go see the movie. We normally have popcorn (large, extra butter) and soda (medium) with our movies.

We have been unable to see many films lately because the batteries in our remote control have gone dead. A lot of people say it's because the batteries are three years old. I think that it's an Ashcroft/CIA plot.

Small bills would be really cool. E-mail me with your bank account info so I can see the film and deliver votes for Kerry.



Posted by: Potential Moviegoer at June 29, 2004 at 05:09 PM

Take that, Tim! And that, and that, and that!


Ayad? You're a spaz.

Posted by: Brendan at June 29, 2004 at 05:14 PM


I have lots of friends and family that would really enjoy this movie. I've been looking forward to it for a while. I believe it will become the comedy hit of the year. Can't wait to see it for myself to laugh at MM's most recent stretching of the truth.

I'll need an entire theater, with free popcorn, etc.. If you let me know where to send my request, I'll email you and you can rent one of my local theaters.

Thanks for being so generous with your money.

Posted by: Chris Josephson at June 29, 2004 at 05:15 PM

Tim, I'd take him up on the offer, if only to become MORE informed about Michael Moore being a big, fat stupid white man.

I saw this travesty of a film and only have this to say:

Michael Moore is a joke and all things show it.
I thought so before [F911] and now I know it.

Ayad, I'd like a second screening. Please send me money. And money for choc tops please.

Posted by: French Wench at June 29, 2004 at 05:17 PM

In the generous spirit exemplified by Ayad, I reject all exclusionary notions which suggest that one's "family" consists merely of first and second degree relations who are connected through the equally arbitrary bonds of blood and/or legal adoption. I prefer to include, rather than exclude, therefore I define my family as consisting of the "family of man."

I await your check; please send to Sonetka in Benighted Flyover Country. Remember that failure to act on your part deprives some of our most impoverished brethren around the globe of the chance to pay the cost of five sacks of rice to see a movie. I wouldn't want to live with that guilt. Would you?

Posted by: Sonetka at June 29, 2004 at 05:20 PM

Hmmmm, another Nigerian scam... you forgot to mention that you are an honest worker, and whoever it was that died and left you in a bad financial situation.

Posted by: kae at June 29, 2004 at 05:28 PM

Ayad? ... Hmmm. Another ME whiner who's found a new source of blame?

Posted by: Helen at June 29, 2004 at 05:34 PM

Go to Shrek 2 instead, Tim.

At least there you'll be barracking for the fat guy.

(Shamelessly stolen from a blog I have since forgotten the name of).

Posted by: Quentin George at June 29, 2004 at 05:52 PM

I would see Fahrenheit 9/11 Ayad, but that would be two hours of my life that I couldn't get back.

Posted by: gaz at June 29, 2004 at 05:53 PM

What a curious concept of hospitality. The abusive invitation.

Must be one o' them cultural thingies, huh?

Posted by: mojo at June 29, 2004 at 05:54 PM


A lot of people have difficulty with "you're" and "your", but if you're going to call others ignorant, it would be well worthwhile mastering this simple distinction

Posted by: rexie at June 29, 2004 at 06:18 PM

"Ignorant Idiot"

As opposed to "worldly idiot" or "ignorant genius" perhaps?

Posted by: Quentin George at June 29, 2004 at 06:43 PM

can i just have the cash?

Posted by: roscoe.p at June 29, 2004 at 06:59 PM

farenheit what?
The "mockumentary" released last weekend was simply a series of facts with a series of presumptions following as conclusions. Nearly all the chains drawn by Moore (such as linking Bush to Osama bin Laden through x number of people nearly putting me to sleep) have no significance and can't be proven at all. Yes, the people that Bush dealt with during his former years were appointed to positions in the government, but Moore has no backing for the statements he made. Rather, he begins many of his conclusions with words of uncertainty, such as, wouldn't and doesn't it seem. As in, "Bowling for Columbine", he attempts to draw parallels which he can't prove, and he does so by exploiting people to draw to the emotions of the viewers. His comments regarding the upcoming election and not wanting to change the minds of the populace is a bit absurd after the images he portrays. Specifically, Moore uses a woman who is a supporter of Bush, and what the administration is doing in the Middle East, praising of her children as being, "gifts to the military". Minutes later, the woman can be found crying and speaking of Bush and the military in disgust. People who are emotional, and we know the majority of people think with emotion rather than logic, are easily influence by such garbage as Fahrenheit 9/11. Moore knew what he was doing and wasn't presenting anything relatively close to a documentary on what Bush was doing. Many of his "facts" have already been retracted by the White House in statements released the following week.
His potrayal of the army is also disgusting. As a man wanting what's best for the people and fair for the people, he certainly feels one-sided about the army. All of the footage shown shows our soldiers either killing civilians, or talking about what music they like to, "kill to". Since we have such a large group of unqualified, savages of soldiers in the Middle East, why not portray them as what they really are? Or so he'd like to make us think. The reasoning is to make people think that's what they are and try to influence them through such imagery.
After seeing that movie, I'm reminded of such propaganda films shown to the United States Army prior to fighting the Japanese showing their soldiers as animals; giving the soldiers the sentiment they had.
When Moore can produce a movie without using half-truths to draw conclusions, and attempting to grasp people's emotions through other people's misfortune, he might get full credit for his ability. In the meantime, the media is portraying him as the person he is; a curmudgeon out to get George Bush by using whatever means he can.

Plus, our good boy MM implies that people drawn into the military are both poor and black, but the next scene implies that they are both white and racist. Clearly, both can not be the case. MM needs to choose one stance or the other, and either portray our military as a refuge for the poor and broken down, or as a safe house for white supremacists. Obviously both can not be true.

Jack, with a conclusion by DLo.

Posted by: hank_rearden at June 29, 2004 at 07:22 PM

Ayad- I already saw that piece of garbage propaganda and vomited in the aisles halfway through due to MM's lies. Will you give me my $5.50 back? Also, where in Ohio do you live to be expressing such incorrect, liberal views?

Posted by: hank_rearden at June 29, 2004 at 07:25 PM

In response to the criticism of President Bush’s response or lack there of in the 7 minutes following the plane striking the 2nd twin tower, is there a handbook that I am unaware of that has directions on how to act when your country is being attacked? This criticism of his solemn ness is ludicrous. I had the same reaction sitting in my home viewing this planes on television, I was in shock, disbelief, some people I know were automatically outraged, some cried, are any of these reactions incorrect? Should I have jumped off the bed and grabbed my rifle and headed for the nearest recruiters office? Or should I have started sobbing and mourning? The point is there is no correct response; President Bush is a human being just as the rest of us are, we are diverse and all have varying reactions to tragedy.

In response to Michael Moore asking senators if they would send their sons and daughters into war was ridiculous, these senators have no more authority to send their children into war then do anyone else’s parents. Furthermore what is one supposed to say to that question? “Ok sure Michael I will go grab my kid and force them to go fight” it is a choice that is up to the individual, not their parents. If someone joins the armed services they know they run the risk of possibly going into war.

Another antic of Michael Moore’s is when he is following around the armed services recruiters, and inferring that they are praying on the lower class kids by heading to the urban mall versus the suburban mall etc….well the kids in the urban areas may have fewer opportunities to improve their quality of life, they may not have the means to attend college and the military may be their only option in getting out of their impoverished neighborhood. When the armed service recruiters came to my school, I and many I know passed them by, why, well because we fortunately had options to advance our lives other than risking our lives, so this makes sense for the recruiters to go to areas where the kids have fewer options, The military is a business; the soldiers in the armed services are employees of the government. These recruiters jobs are to essentially be headhunters ( the same that a fortune 500 company would have to lure top executives) the recruiters felt they have a higher pool to draw from in the lower class neighborhood due to lack of options for the inhabitants. They make the choice to sign on in hopes of ultimately bettering their lives. I think it is a slap in the face of all who choose a military life weather it be because they have no other option or because of a love for their country and service for Michael Moore to claim that it is a duty for the poor, I believe that he attempts to discredit the job our armed services to for our country.

Posted by: BUCK at June 29, 2004 at 07:30 PM

yes are looking for backers will you donate ?
the first scene features Jimmy dancing through the poppy fields in Isfahan , whilst singing koranic verses in his alto castrati voice!
Then later we switch to the peaceful islamic messages of the wahabbists in Saudi, we he solemnly accepts and reveres.
Ayat the propaganda value of this type of film cannot even be equalled or bought with saudi bribes !
Send us the money and we'll let you play the Ayatollah part.

Posted by: davo at June 29, 2004 at 07:42 PM


I also like to watch the fillum. Please send money for tickets, airfares and car rental. One hundred grand should cover it.

Address it to my "Posted By" at ...

666 Lygon Street
Crimewave, Braxtoria

PS: How are things in Ohio? Can you say hello to Drew Carey? He works in a big store, and I like his friend Lewis. He takes drugs and is funny.

Posted by: David Stratton at June 29, 2004 at 07:48 PM

Any contributions to the script of jimmy carter tiptoeing through the poppy fields of iran are gratefully accepted.
The final scene will be full on musical complete with suicide belt adorned belly dancers, chorusing the "ululululul" sounds whilst jihad warriors fire their Ak47s upwards and nags of turkish delights are sprayed on the ecstatic audience.

Posted by: davo at June 29, 2004 at 07:53 PM


I will pay for you and your family to eat pork. After eating lots and lots of pork, you can begin to unlock your brain and think like a human. After seeing you in action, Ayad must mean ignorant idiot in Ohio.

Posted by: perfectsense at June 29, 2004 at 08:03 PM

Pork! It does a body good.

Ayad: I haven't seen the movie yet because tickets in my part of the US have gone up to $350.00 per person. Honest Injun! They say it's because of the War. I would like to take ten of my friends to go see it. Could you deposit the money into my Paypal acccount? (Follow the url link below.)

Thanks. Do it for the Children of America. Or at least for the adults of America who want to pay off their bills and then eat hot wings and drink beer.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at June 29, 2004 at 08:38 PM

Really, Tim, good call on not just posting it and leaving it. Any commentary would've ruined the moment!

Posted by: Aaron at June 29, 2004 at 09:33 PM

Apparently 'informed' is the new ignorance.
Sort of like gay people taking back the word 'queer', now Lefties the world over can boast how 'informed' they are by the amount of propaganda they've been brain-washed.

Posted by: RM in Newtown at June 29, 2004 at 10:06 PM

Mark Steyn on the Clinton biog is in top sidesplitting form, here's an exceprt which is relevant to this topic:

"Somewhere along the way, "My Life" morphs seamlessly from Bill's relations to other people's relations. One minute the old schmoozer is in the Ozarks glad-handing a "segregationist optometrist" (they didn't see eye to eye) and a great-aunt who has the biggest melons in Arkansas; the next he's glad-handing the nephew of Sherman Billingsley, owner of the Stork Club. The day after that, he's in ethics class helping out his new buddy, King Faisal's nephew Prince Turki, later the deeply sinister longtime head of Saudi Arabia's intelligence service and now ambassador in London. This is ethics class in Georgetown, I believe, not at Miss Marie Purkins's School for Little Folks. But even so, where's Michael Moore when you need a documentary exposé of the murky decades-old ties between the House of Saud and the House of Bill?"


Posted by: brij at June 29, 2004 at 10:22 PM


I usually wait until movies come out on DVD before watching them. So, please send me the necessary money to cover the purchase price of the F911 DVD when it comes out. Also, I'm not sure that my current TV set can really do justice to Moore's size, so the money for a new big screen TV and home theater system should be included. The bigger, the better, so that I can get the full impact of the enormity of Michael Moore. I think that about $5000 should be a good start.

Posted by: Dave T. at June 29, 2004 at 11:01 PM

Thank you for your generous offer. I have been very anxious to see F911, but just can't bring myself to give Jabba the Moore my $8 bucks. My email address is zeyguy@somrux.com. Please email me and we can discuss how you can wire the eight bucks to me (I assume Pay Pal will be fine) and I will promise to write to back immediately upon viewing the film, and I will even mail back the ticket stub to prove to you that your money went to F911.

Thank you once again for your generosity,
Another Michael

Posted by: Michael at June 29, 2004 at 11:31 PM

Can anyone explain to me how people escape from the ME, find freedom and opportunity in Ohio, Michigan (or London, Manchester, or Hamburg for that matter) and then immediately fall somewhere on the spectrum from brainwashed pseudo-leftist anti-Americanist all the way to active terrorist supporter? How does this happen? Is it because they lose all sense of self-respect from being handed so much freedom and opportunity? Is it simply a reflection of the West's uncanny ability to find a marketer to fulfill every market segment's every delusion? Can anyone explain to me how it is that Iraqis (judging from their new radio stations) can - after decades of torture and totalitarian rule - rather easily grasp the basic facts of the world, but Arabs in the West seem unable to. Ayad (writing from Ohio! how the hell did he even get there?) feels no sense of embarassment or shame. Why should he? After the great ironic decade (the 90s) that saw one US embassy bombed after another while our Therapy-Patient-in-Chief was getting his knob polished in the Oval Office, nobody thinks anything is ironic anymore.

Posted by: Sergio at June 29, 2004 at 11:55 PM

Damn, he's from Ohio? Time to change my name...

Posted by: Guy from Ohio at June 30, 2004 at 12:04 AM

I think I will just wait for when CBS shows the movie in late October.

Posted by: A E Hansen at June 30, 2004 at 12:11 AM

I think I will just wait for when CBS shows the movie in late October

Funny but probably true.

Posted by: hen at June 30, 2004 at 12:35 AM

Jonah Goldberg had a good bit on the Moore yesterday.

Posted by: Crusader at June 30, 2004 at 12:50 AM

If someone calims we are idiots for not sharing MM's and obviously Ayad's views,then I think that would be considered a complimnet.

But if Ayaed is so keen for me to see a movie about a cultural reallity then he can send me the money so that I can purchase numerous copies of The Seige. I can then show it to impressionable school kids in an attempt to highlight just how fucking sick muslims are. Who cares if it's true, not MM.

And while Im at it, I'll buy copies of the executions of Daniel Pearle, Nick Berg, Fabrizzo Quatrocci, Hendrick Frandsen and the other numerous poor souls that were so cowardly executed by islamic scum..

Oh and Ayed, before you scream, US get out of someone elses country, just remember who's country your in. Are you not occupying a country against the will of the people too???

Posted by: scott at June 30, 2004 at 12:57 AM

My name is Ayad, I live inOhio.

So was Matt Maupin, but Michael Moore's "revolutionaries" murdered him.

Posted by: Robert Crawford at June 30, 2004 at 12:59 AM

Ayad didn't 'escape the ME. Like a lot of muslim immigrants, he's trying to expand it. There is, withing the muslim community, a wide awareness that democracy can be used, very effectively to end democracy. This is an admitted strategy. Muslim immigration leads to a muslim electorate, which leads to muslim friendly laws being passed, which leads to higher muslim immigration coupled with a high muslim birthrate, which leads to a majority muslim electorate, which leads to sharia, which leads to a caliphate and the end of that pesky democracy.

Think this is far fetched? Sharia based arbitration in Canada and government approved calls to prayer in Michigan say it's not...

Posted by: jack at June 30, 2004 at 01:02 AM

I plan to see the movie ASAP, now that I've realized that, for all its lies about Bush, 9/11, Iraq, and all, it's a valuable document of the dissolution of a mind (Moore's) and a movement (the liberal left takeover of the Democrat party).

I am also now freed to see Bowling For Columbine, which I've avoided to this point. It'll be like watching Henry Ng's home movies, but it will be worth it.

Posted by: Brian Jones at June 30, 2004 at 01:09 AM

I hope you had the chance to see the recently released Beverly Hillbillies DVD box set.

If you did not, please buy it NOW. I will pay for you and your family to view this splendiferous take on American life in the 1960's.

I only had to read a few of your so called views; I think you are an idiot, Oh! An ignorant idiot. Just like your friends, the Clampetts.

My name is Cletis, I'm from Ohio. I went back to Ohio but my city was gone. Hey, ho, where’d you go, Ohio? Please email me your bank account number so I can pay for you and your family to see all Beverly Hillbillies episodes.

If you did see them, then I hope your now more INFORMED>>>>


Posted by: Tongue Boy at June 30, 2004 at 01:13 AM

Hey, Ayad! Hey!

As long as you're handing out money, I'd like some too. Better yet, since I'm in Ohio too, just give me your address and I'll drop by and pick it up. And we can have a discussion and everything about the meanings of "ignorant" and "idiot", OK? You might find it a little hard to talk to me, or even look me in the eye, being as I'm, well, female and all, but look, you want to show me the Muslim way of doing things, don't you? Don't you?

Posted by: Rebecca at June 30, 2004 at 01:17 AM


I have no doubt Ayad would like to show you the Arab way. So, if you do go around to his place, watch out for the shot in the back from the shadows.

Posted by: S Whiplash at June 30, 2004 at 01:32 AM

My name is Ayad, I live inOhio.

Talk about idiots; this is the pot calling the kettle black. Move along, nothing to see here...

Posted by: Roger Bournival at June 30, 2004 at 01:46 AM

Ayad, just because you live in Ohio doesnt mean that your not a fucking raghead. You and Moore can burn in hell and take that cock sucker allah with you

Posted by: Oktober at June 30, 2004 at 02:07 AM

Perhaps Christopher Guest can be persuaded to make a mockumentary entitled "The Fat Millionaire Next Door: The Rise of 'The Great Gutsby'".

Posted by: Tongue Boy at June 30, 2004 at 02:32 AM

But I do like his entirely superfluous use of "so called" to describe what are - surely undeniably - "views". That's a lovely touch. Anyway, I have to go now, to the so called station, to catch a so called train.

Posted by: wardytron at June 30, 2004 at 03:36 AM

I recently read a paper on A Measure of Media Bias by Tim Groseclose and Jeff Milyo. They took the top 200 think tanks and counted the number of times they were quoted positively by members of congress giving them a number representative of the American people as they elected the congress. Then they compiled a similar list for the major media.
It seems that who you quote says a lot about you, so when I see Michael Moore or F 451 mentioned, I know that what will follow is left wing drivel.
By the way, using this system, the researchers found that when compared to congress and thus America, Fox News and Drudge report are centerist and everything else is varying degrees left of them. No suprise, they also noted only 7% of journalists voted for Bush.

Posted by: Mike O at June 30, 2004 at 04:23 AM

I hope the numbnut who tossed out "raghead" and "cocksucker allah" is a lefty plant trying to slander us. In fact, I'm sure he is. Nice try, asshole. Go back to DU.

I also hope the folks who have stomach enough to see F911 will avoid giving Jabba any more money and returns by buying a ticket for another film running at the same time and then ducking into the F911 room.

Posted by: Dave S. at June 30, 2004 at 04:28 AM

Moore's real movie future lies in him playing the role of Jabba the Hut in any future Star Wars films. Keep eating!

Posted by: zzx375 at June 30, 2004 at 04:36 AM

Sonetka - shouldn't that be "family of person"? Tsk, tsk, you sexist throwback: no wonder you've been exiled to flyover country.

BTW, does this family business mean that we're related?

Posted by: Brown Line at June 30, 2004 at 08:29 AM

Do what I did. Buy a ticket to Shrek 2 and walk in the less-than-full Farenheit 911. This way, you see the movie and Moore doesn't get the money.

Posted by: Brian at June 30, 2004 at 01:54 PM

To Hank Reardon and some others who might be surprised that someone with Ayad's views lives in Ohio: don't be misled by midwestern stereotypes. Here in Columbus we've got OSU, one of the largest campuses in the US. It's certainly no Berkeley, but where there are college professors, there are wacky leftists.

Columbus also has the US's second largest Somali community (after Minneapolis), as I just learned when one of them was arrested on charges of plotting to blow up a shopping mall here.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at June 30, 2004 at 03:07 PM

Wow. It's like talking to my brother in stereo! Well, I'm certainly not planning on offering to send people money to see a movie to change their point of view, but for what it's worth (and I'll bet at least someone says nothing or less) I'm a fan of Michael Moore. Not because I'm a vicious lefty radical who hates the US and plans on blowing up George Bush, but because I appreciate the fact that his movies and books are amusing (My OPINION, not a fact, lie, judgement on your taste or other inflammitory comment) and I can appreciate the fact (which some others can't) that it's an opinion piece in itself. Show me one "Lie" he uses facts to back up his opinions. You may find the links tenuous at best, but I'm not aware of any impending litigation because of his "Lies" One of you has even said that he uses facts - and in the same breath declared the previously held facts to be lies because they were linked to something you don't agree with - and that's fine. You can disagree. That's what makes an opinion an opinion. I just find it slightly amusing (And yes, my sense of humour is rather twisted) that you say it's a fact then call it a lie. Which is it? But hey, I fully expect to be attacked and derided for having a contrary opinion, but that's your right as well.

And that's my $0.02

Posted by: keri at June 30, 2004 at 04:15 PM


When you get to college, be sure to take at least one course in logic.

It's rather easy to use facts, as Michael Moore does, to build a lie.

Take for example the fact that 2 million Americans are currently incarcerated. Another fact is that the largest percentage of them are African-Americans.

Using Moore's logic, one could surmise that African-Americans are born criminals.

That would, of course, be a racist lie. You yourself Keri could probably come up with a number of equally plausible reasons that these facts exist as they do. Most would be more truthful than the lie.

In MooreWorld, there is only one cause: Because Bush sucks.

That is why Moore claimed on his own website on 9/11/01 that the WTC was destroyed--Because people voted for Bush.

The man has a monomania and as for him being funny, he is funny the way a man who thinks he is a chicken is funny. English Society-types used to pay to go to Bedlam, the insane asylum, to laugh at such "funny" people.

Posted by: JDB at June 30, 2004 at 05:11 PM

Keri: The big lie:

Moore asserts that Iraq under Saddam had never attacked or killed or even threatened (his words) any American. I never quite know whether Moore is as ignorant as he looks, or even if that would be humanly possible. Baghdad was for years the official, undisguised home address of Abu Nidal, then the most-wanted gangster in the world, who had been sentenced to death even by the PLO and had blown up airports in Vienna* and Rome. Baghdad was the safe house for the man whose "operation" murdered Leon Klinghoffer. Saddam boasted publicly of his financial sponsorship of suicide bombers in Israel. (Quite a few Americans of all denominations walk the streets of Jerusalem.) In 1991, a large number of Western hostages were taken by the hideous Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and held in terrible conditions for a long time. After that same invasion was repelled—Saddam having killed quite a few Americans and Egyptians and Syrians and Brits in the meantime and having threatened to kill many more—the Iraqi secret police were caught trying to murder former President Bush during his visit to Kuwait. Never mind whether his son should take that personally. (Though why should he not?) Should you and I not resent any foreign dictatorship that attempts to kill one of our retired chief executives? (President Clinton certainly took it that way: He ordered the destruction by cruise missiles of the Baathist "security" headquarters.) Iraqi forces fired, every day, for 10 years, on the aircraft that patrolled the no-fly zones and staved off further genocide in the north and south of the country. In 1993, a certain Mr. Yasin helped mix the chemicals for the bomb at the World Trade Center and then skipped to Iraq, where he remained a guest of the state until the overthrow of Saddam. In 2001, Saddam's regime was the only one in the region that openly celebrated the attacks on New York and Washington and described them as just the beginning of a larger revenge. Its official media regularly spewed out a stream of anti-Semitic incitement. I think one might describe that as "threatening," even if one was narrow enough to think that anti-Semitism only menaces Jews. And it was after, and not before, the 9/11 attacks that Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi moved from Afghanistan to Baghdad and began to plan his now very open and lethal design for a holy and ethnic civil war. On Dec. 1, 2003, the New York Times reported—and the David Kay report had established—that Saddam had been secretly negotiating with the "Dear Leader" Kim Jong-il in a series of secret meetings in Syria, as late as the spring of 2003, to buy a North Korean missile system, and missile-production system, right off the shelf.

From Christopher Hitchens at Slate.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at June 30, 2004 at 05:31 PM


When I get to college? Excuse me? Because I disagree with your opinion I must be a child? Must you resort to insults to get a point across? I may disagree with you, and may have done it in a forum that was bound to cause a response, but isn't that the idea behind intelligent discourse? And for the record, I don't think that the US (and their allies) were wrong for going into Iraq, but I do have a problem with some of the "facts" behind it. I would prefer that someone is up-front and honest with me when they expect me to support a military action, and that if they are to do it for a moralistic reason, they be free of any hypocrasy in doing so, which I do not believe to be the case here. But I obviously don't have access to the intelligence information that others do, so those who are elected to call the shots must do so. And again, I'm asserting the fact that nothing he has said is actually factually inaccurate. His logic - the tenuous links he makes between statistics and policy etc, - may well be incorrect, but are debatable from all sides. I'm just presenting a different point of view.

And for the record, JDB, exactly what in my post suggested a lack of education or intelligence? I assume there were no typographic errors, as I'm sure you would have pointed them out. Was it simply my opinion that denoted a lack of intelligence to you? Or the fact that my opinion differs from yours? How does an opinion in itself suggest a lack of education? Could you tell from what I said that I have no degree? (And, for the sake of accuracy, I have several) Or are you an expert at language and can guage my age from my writing style? If so, you're off the mark.

Posted by: keri at June 30, 2004 at 06:58 PM

Tim: General rule about Malaysian piracy: If you want medium-quality, wait till it opens in Singapore (or if it is one of the films banned there, in Taiwan, or Hong Kong, or the like), and add another 2-4 weeks till it hits the streets.

Well, it would take a loooooong time.

And add another 2 weeks for it to come out on DVD.

Posted by: Rajan R at June 30, 2004 at 07:44 PM

Keri's post above is quite a shining example of what upsets most liberals more than anything else in the world: Calling them uneducated.

And you really should read that Hitchens piece, it might disabuse you of that silly "Moore never lies, he just draws off-the-wall conclusions that you people don't agree with" notion.

Posted by: PW at June 30, 2004 at 11:06 PM

Ahem. Firstly, I don't align myself with any political party, don't consider myself Liberal, and many of my ideals and beliefs are no where near Liberal.

Secondly, it would be a happy day when the thing I got upset about most was being called uneducated. I don't know about you, PW, but that's the least of my concerns. I must say it annoys me more when my stapler jams. I can't say the (incorrect) views on my education of someone I have never met are going to cause me to lose any sleep at night. I was just replying to something that was inferred incorrectly.

And I don't recall, at any stage during that post, saying that Moore "Never" lies. In fact, I've just checked, and didn't say that at any stage. Surely that in itself is silly? To accuse someone of lying and then misquoting someone at the same time doesn't lend much credibility, surely?

And I certainly do intend to read the piece. I do have quite an open mind, and read anything that is recommended to me with no pre-judgments on it. It might be so compelling that I could change my view, who knows?

Posted by: Keri at July 1, 2004 at 10:55 AM

exactly what in my post suggested a lack of education or intelligence?

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess it was when you said you were a fan of Moore because he's amusing and draws tenuous links between his facts.

The educated term for someone who draws tenuous links between facts is "tin-foil wearing conspiracy nut". You're even calling the links tenuous yourself, yet forgiving them because they're "debatable" and "amusing". It's the same lame defense Moore's been offering for his "documentaries" all through his career, and you've been suckered in.

And to clarify for PW there, he wasn't quoting you, he was summing up your viewpoint and containing it in quotation marks to make the sentance coherent. Having read your posts I'd say that's a fair characterization, given that you demanded proof of any of Moore's "lies" on the grounds that he only uses facts, and then defended him over his odd little habit of drawing tenuous links between them.

Posted by: Sortelli at July 2, 2004 at 12:20 PM


Okay then. Have a look at what I posted. Then have take another look with your eyes open. I did not say I was a fan because Moore draws tenuous links. Not at all. I said I was a fan because I find it amusing. I also said I recpected the fact that they were opinion pieces. I admitted the links were tenuous, and at no point have I said that I forgave him that. I don't think that anyone who writes a book or makes a film would require or want the forgivness of someone who chooses to read/watch it because they find something they don't agree with. Nor am I required to forgive him that to watch it and enjoy it. If you're a fan of, say, Bob Dylan, and he brings out a song you think could be better, or lyrics you don't agree with, are you required to forgive him for making the song or writing the lyrics in order to still enjoy the song as a whole? Of course not.

And, honestly, if you are going to start questioning the intelligence of others, you might want to take more than a stab in the dark. And, if you're going to "characterize" me, you may want to actually read my posts a bit more thoroughly. I've already stated that I'll be reading the piece recommended to me, and I actually ASKED for someone to tell me where in Moore's work there was a lie - and someone did.

From where I'm standing that seems pretty open minded. If you really do want to change people's minds or "educate" them as to fallacies or inaccuracies - aren't you best off doing that in a way that doesn't put them offside by implying they lack intelligence for asking a question?

The only thing I have disagreed with is that PW stated that I said that Moore never lies. I hadn't said that, and I was making a correction to a false statement made. So I used the word quote, when maybe I should have used "assertion". The fact remains that the assertion/quote was incorrect.

I also took exception to the fact that someone had questioned my intelligence based on an opinion - and you seem to have questioned my intelligence based on my sense of humour, which I had already stated was rather twisted.

Basically what I'm trying to say is this - I have no problem with you saying I'm wrong. I have no problem with you saying you don't agree with what I say. I have no problem, if, after I read the piece recommended to me, and I change my point of view, in saying so. Surely that's the point? But I do have a problem with someone calling my intelligence into question and not backing it up.

Posted by: keri at July 2, 2004 at 02:48 PM

Not at all. I said I was a fan because I find it amusing.

So you find him amusing despite the outright misdirections, lies, and tenuous logic. Good on you, that makes you look really open-minded and educated. I mean, gullible and worried about what strangers think of you in a rapidly aging blog thread.

Hey, are you still slightly amused at us? (that's an easy out for you, now you can spend your next multi-paragraph post preening about how you're above all this. You're welcome)

Posted by: Sortelli at July 3, 2004 at 04:02 PM