May 06, 2004


There’s trouble in Vienna, as AP reports:

Plans to name a Vienna square after Zionist Theodor Herzl drew protest Tuesday from the Arab League, which urged city fathers to reconsider for the sake of continued "good relations" with the Arab world.

Representatives of Vienna's Islamic community also opposed the plan to honor the founder of Zionism, the movement to establish the state of Israel.

Helpfully, Islamic spokesburqa Carna Amina Baghajati proposes a compromise:

She suggested a square be named instead for Mohammad Asad, the Austrian-born Jew who changed his name from Leopold Weiss, converted to Islam and went on to become an honored 19th century Muslim scholar.

Posted by Tim Blair at May 6, 2004 04:35 PM

Of course, this has nothing to do with the influence of Muslims in Europe.

Posted by: The Real JeffS at May 6, 2004 at 04:50 PM

That's the sort of compromise I like - "Do what I want or else!!!"

Posted by: Jimi at May 6, 2004 at 05:20 PM

Those lederhosen-clad,chocolate-addict yodelling yahoos have a fine history of Hebrew-appreciation; fancy letting the standard drop now.

Posted by: Habib at May 6, 2004 at 05:20 PM

Oh God, some fucking fundamentalist Muslims are offended. That's a bit like not being liked by Michael Moore - a sign you're doing something right.

Hey, Muslims, I'm offended when you cut the clits off twelve year old girls. Ask yourselves, why do human beings hate your ninth century barbarism? Why do we get shocked when your monkeys machine-gun a car full of children and call it 'heroic'? Give me a good reason why we tolerate you. Because the day we stop doing so is the day you die. All of you. We invented genocide. If pushed, we will lose our souls so as not to lose our lives. We'll agonise about your annihilation for ever. But you'll still be dead.

Posted by: David Gillies at May 6, 2004 at 05:42 PM

"Good relations with the Arab world" ... well, we wouldn't want anything to upset that, now would we? Perhaps they ought to name it Hajj Amin al-Husseini Square, for the Arab leader who collaborated with Austria's most famous son during the WWII era. (Dershowitz: The Case for Israel, pp. 54-55.) (Hat tip: Mark from Colorado.)

Posted by: asher abrams at May 6, 2004 at 05:52 PM

I'll be interested to see how this turns out.

Posted by: asher abrams at May 6, 2004 at 05:55 PM


Dhimmi Place
Caliphate Restoration Square


Posted by: fidens at May 6, 2004 at 06:32 PM

how about we rename the square "f*** you, arab league" instead?

Posted by: samkit at May 6, 2004 at 07:11 PM

Theodor Herzl, like Schwarzenegger and Hitler, is a native of Austria.

Posted by: Andjam at May 6, 2004 at 07:14 PM

Dear Muslims:

It is offensive that you kill a pregnant woman and her four young daughters. Please praise Allah and honor kill yourselves so you can collect 72 virgin pigs and the rest of us can live in peace.

Posted by: perfectsense at May 6, 2004 at 07:53 PM

Ironic, and potently symbolic that this should flare up in Vienna.

Süleyman the Magnificent (1520-1566) expanded Islamic control into Hungary, reaching as far as Vienna but failing to take the city. The Second Seige of Vienna occurred in 1683 but, Deo gratias, the invaders were again defeated.

Oriana Fallaci is right: a new, smarter Third Seige is underway in Europe now but they just don't see it.

Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 6, 2004 at 08:52 PM

This is so unfair, but I'll have to do it anyway:

Perhaps both the Austrians and the Muslims would be happy if the square were named after one the Muslims' favorite Europeans, another native of Austria, one Herr Shicklegruber, who later became famous under an assumed name...

Posted by: ralph phelan at May 6, 2004 at 09:44 PM

Instead of naming the square after Mohammad Asad, why not name it after Mohammad Atta?

After all, Mohammad Atta lived in Germany for a while (right next door!) and his actions have shown us the true nature of Islam.

Posted by: The Mongrel at May 6, 2004 at 09:52 PM

How about Square For The Stoning Of Adulterous Infidels?

Posted by: Habib at May 6, 2004 at 09:55 PM

Fuck me you lot are pathetic.
*Yeah* muslims are out to get us. *Yeah* we've a god-given right to kill them if we see fit. *Yeah* lets occupy their lands and wonder why the simpletons might be offended. *Yeah* the base tenet of Islam is to kill pregnant women. And, finally, *Yeah* no crime has ever been committed against these people that might warrant a response.

Evidently, few of you have ever completed high school. And I'd wager a fortune that none of you have ever studied these areas which you all seem so *qualified* and *educated* and *experienced* in to comment on at a higher level.

Thinking of all of you as the sub-moronic plebs that you are,

Mister Normal.

Posted by: normy normal at May 6, 2004 at 10:08 PM

PS. It's not muslims that 'cut the clits off 12 year old girls', it's tribal folk in africa. That abhorrent practice has as much basis in Islam as it does in Chritianity. ie. noe whatsoever. You retard, Mr David Gilles.

Posted by: Normy normality at May 6, 2004 at 10:13 PM

Some compromise.

Leopold Weiss aka Mohhamad Asad

Born: Lwow, Galicia (Poland)

Studied: art and philosophy at Vienna University.

Served as Pakistan’s alternative representative in the UN.

Buried in a Muslim cemetery in Grenada Spain.

Muslim he might have been, but Austrian he wasn't.

Posted by: Anabel at May 6, 2004 at 10:33 PM

nice little city you got here, guv. Be a shame if anything happened to it.

Posted by: Bruce at May 6, 2004 at 11:01 PM

"She suggested a square be named instead for Mohammad Asad, the Austrian-born Jew who changed his name from Leopold Weiss, converted to Islam and went on to become an honored 19th century Muslim scholar. "

You guys should stop outsourcing for honored scholars and produce a few of your own. It's hard work but it beats the shit out of exploding yourself for the ridiculous offer of 72 virgins in the afterlife (Jeezus, what a sales job that is).

Posted by: Arty at May 6, 2004 at 11:12 PM

Why would Austria want to celebrate a traitor?

Lol Bruce...

Posted by: Andrew Ian Dodge at May 6, 2004 at 11:29 PM

When it comes to Arabs and other Muslims, I warm to the idea of ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Theodopoulos Pherecydes at May 6, 2004 at 11:44 PM

who cares what the arab league thinks? wussy-asses.

Posted by: Mr. Bingley at May 7, 2004 at 12:25 AM

The COAM (Coalition of Appeasement Monkeys) in Europe aren't the only ones, Canada is losing their grip also.

Posted by: marc at May 7, 2004 at 12:49 AM

I notice, Mr. 'Normal', or whatever you want to call yourself, that you don't leave a genuine email address. This is a usual tactic of trolls. Run away, little troll.

I don't give a shit what the Koran says. Islam is as Islam does, and its borders are a bloody place, as Samuel Huntington observed. Its interior is pretty nasty, too. So genital mutilation isn't a base tenet of Islam. Believing that the devil sleeps in your left nostril is (and don't bore me with some tu quoque about fundamentalists in the Bush administration. If you can find a single member who thinks Satan's nighttime berth is in your nasal passages I might concede your point). The Koran could be full of admonitions to be nice to trees and flowers and fluffy kittens and if its adherents stone a woman for adultery in its name then it's not worth the paper it's printed on. People have done some pretty horrible things in the name of the Bible, but at least we have the shame to admit they were wrong. The Palestinian reaction to the point-blank executions of a pregnant woman and her four young children was that it was 'heroic'. I hear a lot of pious rhetoric about how 'moderate Muslims' decry this sort of thing (usually with a 'yes, but...'), but the plain fact is, there's a very large number who think it's just hunky dory, and I have no problem with the Marines shooting them. But push us too far and it won't be the USMC doing the killing. It will be Strategic Air Command.

Posted by: David Gillies at May 7, 2004 at 01:16 AM

Let's hope the Viennese wise up and continue with the original plan. They needn't worry about upsetting "good relations" with the Arab world anyway, because there is no such thing for anyone who isn't one of them.

Posted by: Rebecca at May 7, 2004 at 01:55 AM

Mr Normal says: "Fuck me you lot are pathetic..." Bad grammar - could read as an offer. Offer declined.

"muslims..." Upper case please - even we show them that respect.

"...we've a god-given right to kill them if we see fit."

Pursuant to just-war theory, not to mention Clauswitz, we DO have a right to defend ourselves. In an era of suicide-bombers, planes-as-bombs and WMD, pre-emption constitutes self-defence. We cannot and do not kill them as "we see fit." We kill them according to the laws of war, to which we pay an almost self-endangering degree of respect.

"...the base tenet of Islam is to kill pregnant women."

Have never read such an assertion in this forum. A basic tenet of Islam IS the surrendering of self. That's what 'Islam' literally means actually. Several factors have lead to Islamic decline, amongst which 'occupation' doesn't rate: hopeless mismanagement of what providence and geography gave them; a disinterest in education, science, rational enquiry, a work-ethic and equal rights for women, inter alia. A very substantive number of Muslims today have surrendered themselves not to a genuine religiosity, but to a violent and backward cult characterised by an adolescent obsession with being wronged and a fetish for half-wit 'clerics' and 'spiritual leaders'. The latter themselves lack anything that would be regarded in the West as a broad and modern liberal education.

"Evidently, few of you have ever completed high school..." etc.

We study the present. A person who makes no intelligent linkage between formal learning and the world around him is not 'educated' but someone "who knows not that he knows not" - how a wise man once defined the fool.

Churchill studied Hitler's Mein Kampf but, more than anything, he applied his instincts to the assessment of how dangerous Hitler was. Winston didn't attend university and he didn't write a thesis on National Socialism. Nevertheless, Churchill's approach to weighing up good and evil was the right one. I presume you agree with this, unless you're one of these new-fangled leftist nazis.

Good luck with your half-completed Arts degree. As you conclude by differentiating yourself from the contributors to this forum by reference to wealth, may I suggest you ask your presumably well-heeled mother to buy you a good dictionary and grammar style-guide.

Oh, and a plane ticket to Syria.

Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 7, 2004 at 01:59 AM

At the time Leopold Weiss was born, Lwow was called Lemberg, and was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

In those days, Poland did not exist as an independent country, having been divided between Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1795.

Lwow,also written Lviv and Lvov is now in Ukraine.

Can name anything after Schickelgruber - sounds like shekel, the currency of Israel.

Posted by: Goetz von Berlichingen at May 7, 2004 at 02:06 AM

i'm sure there's a street or a square in vienna, celebrating king john sobieski, winner of 1683 battle.
perhaps muslims will ask to have his name deleted, since it might be bringing up bad memories.

Posted by: niels at May 7, 2004 at 03:12 AM

Mr. Normal,
Clitoridectomy is actually recommended within Islam as a practice within the "Sunnah", or the body of Arab tradition which is considered virtuous, though not always mandatory to follow, because these were the customs that Mohammed observed. There is also a couple of "Hadith", or officially recognized anecdotes on the life of Mohammed, which are cited in Moslem jurisprudence, where he recommends it.
There is a condition of "duelling fatwas" and legal cases on the subject in Egypt, with various statements from responsible authorities of Al Azhar on both sides.
It is not just an African practice - it is apparently nearly universal in Egypt (I would not consider this the part of Africa you mean), and common in Saudi Arabia and Yemen, though not always in such an extreme form as is common in black Africa.

Posted by: luisalegria at May 7, 2004 at 03:21 AM

CurrencyLad --

"new-fangled leftist nazis"

All Nazis' are leftist, socialists actually.

A. Hitler was a lefty and so was his buddy the first 'Facist', Bennito Mussolini.

Posted by: Uncle Bill at May 7, 2004 at 04:22 AM

May I suggest Kara Mustapha Platz, after the last distinguished Muslim visitor to Vienna in 1683. Let's make our new visitors feels as though they never left the Casbah.

Posted by: ed at May 7, 2004 at 07:07 AM

re: "Normy" Isn't the old saying to the effect that "the empty can makes the most noise" apropos here?

Posted by: JorgXMcKie at May 7, 2004 at 08:06 AM

Well, I think little "normy" has contributed enough examples of his shining wit for the day. He's in "time out" now.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at May 7, 2004 at 10:17 AM

Uncle Bill: re "new-fangled leftist nazis"...

My point is that, hitherto, the left has regarded itself as diametrically opposed to Nazism not because of the latter's economic ideas or statism but because it is synonymous with racist evil and its penchant for cultural conformity and control.

Today's Western leftists have suddenly embraced anti-semitism; think it's morally acceptable to ignore tyranny, mass murder of ethnic groups (Kurds, for example); believe there is moral equivalency between authoritarian regimes of the most brutal kind and genuine democracy; give succour to religiously medieval fanatics; regard terrorists as 'minutemen' and victims.

In relation to how leftists regard themselves, and have portrayed themselves, all of this has to be regarded as new. The irrationality of the left is that its adherents embrace, or downplay the immorality of, such notions for one reason only: partisan hatred of Bush/Blair/Howard/'neo-cons.'

Yes, we have a new species.

Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 7, 2004 at 11:19 AM

Ah, Goetz von Berlichingen, are you still working as a mercenary? They named an SS division after you, you know. It was one of the ones that specialized in murdering peasants and Jews, and did not do too well when pitted against armed opponents, like the Yugoslav Partisan Army.

Herr Schickelgruber, who changed his name as soon as he could, would have been highly offended by your ignorant and vile comparison of his name to the shekel. Indeed this Israel = Nazi trope is by now so tired and such an ugly and false cliche, that only the most immature and brain-damaged people use it. Sadly, that does include most of the left. I'm a bit surprised the Arabs ever picked it up from its British Colonial Administrator inventors, seeing how Hitler is such a hero to them. Perhaps they mean it as a compliment, a tribute to the martial prowess of the Jews of Israel, who kick the Arabs' asses every time they try to destroy Israel and exterminate its Jewish inhabitants. But there is no comparison, for Israel is not a totalitarian state like Nazi Germany was, and Zionism is not racist, as Nazism is. I might point out, to the contrary, that both the left and the Arab world seem to be becoming remarkably racist. The beam is in your eye, Goetz, deal with it.

Posted by: Michael Lonie at May 7, 2004 at 12:29 PM

Normy Normal said:

"And I'd wager a fortune that none of you have ever studied these areas which you all seem so *qualified* and *educated* and *experienced* in to comment on at a higher level."

I'd like to hear more about this offer.

Posted by: SteveGW at May 7, 2004 at 01:10 PM

Normy Normal,

Check out the Imam on female genital mutilation.

He reckons it's Islamic. He probably knows, being an Imam and all.

Posted by: David at May 7, 2004 at 02:39 PM

The second Holy Siege of Vienna was defeated, with the help of Satan, by infidel forces on September 11, 1683 - a day that lived in infamy until it was partly avenged by the Holy Martyrs, the Magnificent 19!


Posted by: AKBAR THE GREAT at May 7, 2004 at 02:56 PM

Luisalegria, when you say that Muhammad followed this practice (clitoridectomy), do you mean that Muhammad cut off his clitoris?

Jean-Luc Bidet

Posted by: jean-luc bidet at May 7, 2004 at 03:14 PM

I was going to refute Normy normal but since others have already done so, and in a far more thorough fashion than I could be bothered, I'll content myself with pointing and laughing.

"Ha, Ha!"

And I'd wager a fortune that none of you have ever studied these areas which you all seem so *qualified* and *educated* and *experienced* in to comment on at a higher level.

Ponder this: Charles Darwin didn't have a degree in biology.

Posted by: Quentin George at May 7, 2004 at 06:02 PM

Not much point in trying to take dickmunch up on his wager (greeters at Red Lobster aren't the asset-rich mark I'm looking for, no matter how much fucking flair they're wearing). But it's definitely a bet I'd win.

The Left only wants to occupy the moral high ground as a vantage point from which to throw feces at its enemies.

Posted by: David Gillies at May 7, 2004 at 06:38 PM

Can you believe this? They'll never be satified, their demands will never end. Give them Israel, Kashmir, Mindanou and they'll just want more.
Like someone else said, it'll simply end up being another case of "do it or else!"
We have to draw a line in the sand right now and tell them to fuck off, so they know not to expect a bloody thing!

Posted by: Brian. at May 8, 2004 at 02:34 AM

Mr. Bidet,
I cannot speak to the details of Mohammads personal anatomy. However, as I understand it, clitoridectomy was the normal practice of Mohammads tribe, and therefore the assumption is that his female relatives were so treated, and this is the basis for its status as a "virtuous custom".

Posted by: luisalegria at May 8, 2004 at 02:43 AM

It is amazing how much misunderstanding exists today among people, in spite of very advanced communications.

If all the terrorist numbers were compiled, they would be less 1/100th of 1 percent of all the one billion Muslims there are. Yet Muslims are judged by the extremist minority that blows the verses of the Quran to bits with their actions.

If you pile up the bodies of the innocent killed, the Muslim pile of innocent dead will far out number all the innocent killed in Israel and America or anywhere else. Yet, it is the Muslims who are held responsible to be the terrorists.

Think folks. Muslims have their bad guys and still do, like anyone else. But who has ruled large areas of the World with a toleration that came to Europe only in the 1800s and in the 20th century in the United States!



Posted by: Ali at May 13, 2004 at 04:42 PM