May 01, 2004
THEY ARE THE REVOLUTION
Michael Moore’s beloved Iraqi Minutemen have lately been killing Iraqi children. Terry Boyd reports from Baghdad:
Just before 10:30 a.m. Thursday, 1st Lt. Nicholas Bradley crouched next to an Iraqi boy, telling him he’s going to live. The boy, about 12, was bleeding from shrapnel wounds in his back, near his spinal column, and his arm.
The boy couldn’t move his legs, couldn’t feel anything as Bradley probed his feet. But the platoon leader kept talking to him soothingly as medical help arrived. Bradley held the boy’s hand while repeating, “Hey, buddy. You’re good. You’re gonna be all right,” sounding like he believed it, too.
The whole piece, from Stars and Stripes, is worth reading.
Posted by Tim Blair at May 1, 2004 06:10 PMMike Moore's blather has nothing to do with reality it just sounds good to all those shallow Lefties he preaches to! All style and no substance, not-to-mention incredibly dangerous to the people who's interests he's supposed to be defending.
Posted by: Brian. at May 1, 2004 at 07:22 PMGiven that the children were not purposefully targeted, I believe that the correct term to describe the tragedy is "collateral damage".
Posted by: Michael at May 1, 2004 at 07:29 PMDidja hear that, guys? Terrorists and illegal combatants don't mean to kill civilians when they hide behind them or shoot at them or strap bombs to them or. . .!
the more you know
Posted by: Sortelli at May 1, 2004 at 07:34 PMWho said they weren't deliberatley targeted? Children are currency to these criminals, the best propaganda money can buy!
Posted by: Brian. at May 1, 2004 at 07:36 PMAlthough it is interesting that the soldiers apparently made no effort to keep the children away, as they discussed the likelihood of an imminent mortar attack. Responsible policing, that.
Posted by: Michael at May 1, 2004 at 07:38 PMStill, I concede that this story gives you a better impression of the US military than the one where they accidentally blew away 9 children with an A-10.
Posted by: Michael at May 1, 2004 at 07:48 PMWell, you know, maybe someday terrorists and the braindead fuckwads who apologize for them will be an unhappy memory, and God willing the A10s won't be strafing anything after that.
Posted by: Sortelli at May 1, 2004 at 07:54 PMI wonder how far Michael's support for terrorists goes?
Posted by: Observer at May 1, 2004 at 10:57 PMGiven that the children were not purposefully targeted,
How the hell would you know that? Given the history of tactics these animals have used in the past its perfectly reasonable to assume that these children were in fact targeted. With arseholes like you doing their bidding by publicizing every innocent death in an attempt to turn the entire population of Iraq against the coalition, why would it surprise anyone if they started targeting the children?
Posted by: JB at May 1, 2004 at 11:25 PMNice to see Michael continuing his impressive attempts at assertingequivalence between people on both sides that already got him banned once before...
Posted by: PW at May 2, 2004 at 02:05 AMOh, yes, Michael, the bad US soldiers were discussing an impending mortar attack and the good Iraqi/Syrian terrorists were only shooting amongst the children.
Thank you for your clarification. Pat yourself on the back for your nuance.
Posted by: ushie at May 2, 2004 at 03:18 AMFuck you, Michael.
Go fuck your motherfuckingbabykilling friends and just shut the fuck up!
That's telling him. Or yelling at him. At least you didn't use all caps.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at May 2, 2004 at 07:36 AMWhoa -- I feel like I just walked into the room while my parents were doing it... this Michael schlub must've got under somebody's skin for such an outburst as that.
Posted by: geezer at May 2, 2004 at 08:27 AMBut don't you see? The left believes that the American Minutemen were terrorists. So it really is the same as the Iraqi baby killers. And the Palestinian baby killers. And the Indonesian baby killers. And...
Posted by: Ken Summers at May 2, 2004 at 10:40 AMLook, this is collateral damage. The kids weren't targeted, we can safely deduct this from the fact that the jihadis can't hit the blindside of a barn. They fired wild and ran like they always do, in this case killing innocent children accidentally. (Like they give a shit about a few dead kids)
US frequently kills non combatants accidentally so it's a little hypocritical to get too outraged on that account.
However, none of that changes the fact that the insurgents are scum trying to drag Iraq into a fiery pit of civil war and further dictatorship and need to be exterminated to the last motherfucking one.
And what's all this I hear about the marines withdrawing from faluja??
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 11:59 AMAmos, much of the point of this is that the Left routinely calls the US military babykillers. They scream when there is collateral damage caused by the US, but not by terrorists. They don't scream when terrorists deliberately target civilians, even children.
And perhaps the children weren't deliberately targetted this time, but there have been plenty of stories recently about Iraqi civilians being targetted.
Posted by: Ken Summers at May 2, 2004 at 12:11 PMPlenty of stories, big deal. Where are the pictures? We have pictures of grinning US soldiers pointing to a very unattractive naked pyramid of Iraqi prisoners, but no pictures of the supposed ubiqitous children 'used as human shields'. Why not? Is it that hard to take a fucking handycam?
The US army better get it's head out of it's ass and realise it's fighting a PROPAGANDA AND PR WAR HERE or they're going to lose this one EXACTLY like they lost Vietnam.
I mean, US soldiers on the ground have to appeal to INTERNET DONATIONS to get the fucking money to set up an opposing TV station to counter Al-jezera? WHAT THE FUCK?
It's unbelievable stupidity like this that makes me fear for the future of Iraq, not the competence of the Marines in killing scumbags on the street. There seems to be an awe-inspiring ignorance of the kind of war this is on the part of the army brass.
I wonder if they learned anything from Vietnam. Anything at all.
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 01:17 PMAnd why the hell is Al-Jezera still broadcasting? Why hasn't it been silenced by political pressure or failing that, a cruise missile? Does the American first amendment apply IN FUCKING QATAR?
Why haven't AJ reporters been shot dead, arrested or disappeared? WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF WAR DOES THE PENTAGON THINK IT'S FIGHTING?
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 01:22 PMAmos:
Your suggestions are stupid. Would you shut up?
Islamofacists shoot people for the hell of it, without a trial or evidence. Is that what you want to be? Think hard before answering -- Miranda Divide is reading this.
If we have freedom of the press in the USA, it's hypocritical that we shut down Al Jazeera, a TV station run by a (nominal) ally, the Emir of Qatar, because they are stirring the pot. Eh? Where do you think CENTCOM headquarters went to, after we left Saudi Arabia? France?
Or do you want National Guard troops to occupy CNN news rooms so that we can march on Al Jazeera? And no, I don't find that attractive. Not at all.
You are falling for the hyperbole of the left. Chill and think. A few soldiers went stupid and fucked up, royally. The rest are shamed by it. The US military is treating their actions as a crime. The other side is going to spin this for all it's worth, and your reaction is merely feeding the fire.
Yeah, it's a PR disaster. So what? Deal with it and move on.
Posted by: JeffS at May 2, 2004 at 01:36 PMAmos has a point.
I guess it depends on whether or not we're playing for keeps.
Posted by: arlo at May 2, 2004 at 02:18 PMWhew, I feel better now.
I share Amos's frustration with Al Jazeera and would rejoice at its demise (by any means, the more spectacular the better). But from what I've read, the Iraqis know Al Jazeera is a joke and they hate it, too. Maybe it's good to have them in the journalistic mix just to have something for the Iraqis to scorn.
Posted by: Polly at May 2, 2004 at 02:24 PMYeah and Tet was a PR disaster. Deal with it and move on. OOPS, LOST THE FUCKING WAR DIDN'T YOU?
Tha Nazis continuosly broadcast propaganda into Britan. If the Allies had had a chance to blow up or silence that transmitter they would considered it a great military success. Somehow I doubt they'd have spent too much time worrying about the 'irony' of it all.
Here's the newsflash: you can absolutly forget about being the good guy. If US forces distribute candy on the street the Arab headlines are ZIONIST CRUSADER FORCES CALLOUSLY ROT TEETH OF IRAQI CHILDREN.
As for Quatar, they'll do what they're fucking told, they're just another busted-ass arab pseudo-dictatorship, they are in no position to be whining about freedome of speech.
In recent days I've gotten the feeling more and more that the US military has just abdicated it's responsibility to fight this war in terrain not to it's liking or it considers beneith it's dignity, like in the press, thus ceding the feild by default to our enemies. I have a strong sense of forboding that they are going to pay heavily for it.
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 02:29 PMAmos shrieked:
Plenty of stories, big deal. Where are the pictures? We have pictures of grinning US soldiers pointing to a very unattractive naked pyramid of Iraqi prisoners, but no pictures of the supposed ubiqitous children 'used as human shields'. Why not? Is it that hard to take a fucking handycam?
So Amos, where are the soldiers supposed to carry these cameras while they are fighting? Contrary to many Hollywood depictions, machine guns are best wielded using two hands.
Anyway, you need to calm down. Sign off the computer, get a drink of water (wash a valium or something down with it) -- just quit yelling at us.
Y'know, this thread started with an excellent story on how US troops actually worry about the innocent Iraqis caught in the cross fire, and how the terrorists don't.
And then the thread degenerated into an argument about the prisoner abuse. The sad thing is that the spin to deal with that has overshadowed the good stuff that actually is happening in Iraq. Even people who support the war are caught up in this cesspool. I don't think we are going to lose this war over that flap, but it will make things harder for us in the long run, partly because the Arab culture never forgets an insult, and partly because the left wing is looking for any dirt.
And there is nothing that we can do about that, except clean up our mess, and lead by example. In the meantime, all we can do is deal with the situation as it is, and move on.
The bottom line is the Coalition forces are civilized as much as anyone can be in the middle of a war. The terrorists and "insurgents" are not civilized. The proof is that we hold our people accountable for their actions on the battlefield, and the enemy could care less about one more dead child.
1LT Bradley is a good soldier, probably one of the best. He and his troops deserve better than this. I'm glad he's over there, and I hope he comes home. We need more people like him.
Posted by: JeffS at May 2, 2004 at 03:17 PMAmos has a good point, though. Enemy propaganda isn't covered by the 1st Amendment. I think Al Jazeera's headquarters should be bombed flat and its reporters executed. They're the public relations arm of Islamofascism. They hanged William Joyce and Julius Streicher, and a good thing too.
This is part and parcel of why I'm not too exercised about this 'torture' brouhaha. So we've got a few bad apples. They'll be indentified, tried and punished. When it comes to the people we're fighting, torture isn't an aberration, it's a policy. This isn't a case of good vs. evil. It's them and us. And we'd better make damn sure that 'us' wins.
Posted by: David Gillies at May 2, 2004 at 03:22 PMTrue, enemy propaganda isn't covered by the US Constitution. True, Al Jazeera is stirring the pot to put the pressure on the US.
But if you think lobbing a missile that way will do any good, think again.
Let's say that you get your fondest wish, and AJ HQ is bombed into dust using precison guided munitions containing conventional warheads. Thanks to masterful planning and strategic deception, there are no collateral damages or civilian casualties. Everything goes to plan, and AJ is off the air. Hooray!
OK, all you armchair generals, what happens next? Is the Arab voice silenced permanently? Have we destroyed that part of the world wide telecommunications network linked into the Middle East?
No? So, what if someone restarts AJ in another part of the Middle East? Hmmmmmmm, say, Syria, or Iran? Do we bomb that, too? We need a decision -- dissent must be crushed!
Pardon the sarcasm. But your anger is clouding your judgement. We would accomplish nothing. Absolutely nothing.
For the record: if I thought it would help, I would push the button!
Let me point out that the declared enemy in this war are terrorists. Not stupid, left leaning, racist bastard journalists, but genuine, gun toting, people killing, Osama following, terrorists.
What about active sympathizers? Well, if you can persuade CENTCOM to send missiles towards Michael Moore and Indymedia, you are a better negotiater than I. I'll volunteer as the forward observer. But please clear it with the Supreme Court, first. They may have a problem over your probable cause, and it might save you troubles down the road.
It's not the same thing, I agree. But remember that Qatar is nominally a US ally. Pre-emptive bombing strikes on that nation would cause diplomatic problems worse than we have now. In a practical sense, bombing AJ would be as bad as bombing Michael Moore's beachfront property while he was sunbathing.
There's a reason to be angry. And there's a reason to control that anger. If you want to help fight against AJ, donate to Spirt of America; they are setting up local TV stations in Iraq because of AJ's crap. That's more productive.
Posted by: JeffS at May 2, 2004 at 03:59 PM"if you can persuade CENTCOM to send missiles towards Michael Moore"
Are! but that would cause the same gravitational shift as nuking the moon.
Posted by: Gary at May 2, 2004 at 04:20 PMFine, so no missile on al-jezera, it would be counterproductive. But there must be a million dirty ways a small arab fiefdom like Qatar could have the screws put on it behind the scene by a certain superpower that happens to have certain large bases in it's countryside, and yet NOTHING of this kind seems to be being done.
AJ seems to be free, utterly free, to act like an active beligerant in this war, to collude with terrorists as their semi-official mouth piece, to always be amazingly in the right place at the right time to 'just happen' to get great pictures of supply convoys being blown up, to continusly defame and distort and incite and to do it all from a supposedly 'friendly' terriory with apparently no fear whatsoever of reprisal.
I mean, this is what amazes me and makes me doubt that CENTCOM gets it- this is a TV WAR and the ememies prime strategic asset opperates, not from well defended ememy territory as it it did in WW2, BUT FROM AREAS CONTROLED BY US and we do nothing about it.
I seriously worry that this war will be won tacticaly on the ground and lost strategicaly the evening news, and for no reason other than utter stupidity.
A trillion dollars of military death-tech on display in the gulf and coalition troops had to do an internet whip-round to fund a TV station? Seriously guys, am I the only one to consider this absolutly goddamn insane?
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 05:17 PMAmos, much of the point of this is that the Left routinely calls the US military babykillers. They scream when there is collateral damage caused by the US, but not by terrorists. They don't scream when terrorists deliberately target civilians, even children.
I'm no leftie apologist, but this is simply wrong. First, I've not heard the phrase "babykillers" since Vietnam, and then I heard it anecdotally from an outraged supporter, who had heard from his friend (etc) that some hippy had shouted it at a returned serviceman. Second, I've read enough, and know enough anti-war idiots to know that "they" don't call us "babykillers". That is, unless you agree that, because of the ill-considered words of a few of "us", "righties" "routinely" want to glass all middle-easterners?
Bottom line: some (a very few) on each "side" hold extreme views. It ill behooves us to screech such absurdities at and about our fellow citizens.
We should be gentle with them. After all, they are fucking retards.
Posted by: Endgame at May 2, 2004 at 05:25 PMLike all wars, the one in Iraq now and the WOT in general have a vital PR component Amos, yes. That means to strike Al Jazeera would be absolutely catastrophic to the campaign.
Moreover, isn't it just possible the military top brass WANT that TV station to be paid for by John and Mary Q. Citizen? That way, its very existence would stand to the Iraqi people as a testament both to the noble intentions of the Marines and to the generosity and concern of average folks back home.
The biggest, most expensive, most awash with money station on the planet would be considered suspect by the populace and would be ridiculed by the wider press.
The medium IS the message.
A military perceptive enough to allow the new station to itself become a symbol of all that's best about the West and its freedom-loving people might just be showing how much it HAS learned from Vietnam.
Who's being "goddam insane"?
Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 2, 2004 at 05:44 PMIt's easy to be an armchair general so I'll just go on assuming they know what they're doing and even if they don't it's not like I'd do any better. But Jesus, it's not like the US military hasn't screwed up befor with this kind of thing.
It seems to me on the military front the Jihadis are well in hand, but the vital political/cultural strategy has not gelled and I don't know if they're really pushing for one. If we're going to lose it, that's how.
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 07:49 PMI might be getting my American football analogy wrong here, Amos, but if the Coalition has played a quarterback role so far, don't the Iraqis themselves have to start being running backs?
Yes, I respect that decades of tyranny and fear have entrenched the immobilising wait-and-see approach to almost everything in Iraq. But there has to be genuine Iraqisation. (No, not presaging a face-saving pull-out, a la Vietnamization). Let's hope the transition next month can help deliver this.
No, we're not 'dropping the ball' as far as the Jihadis are concerned - they are militarily incompetent cretins, "well in hand." My worry is the possibility there'll be no-one looming near the endzone to catch the ball when the clock really starts counting down.
If the debate never moves beyond talk about how 'we' can effect wider political and cultural change, then it's already a lost cause. The discourse on this kind of change should largely be an Iraqi affair, taking place in their own language. I hope it is.
In the meantime the only language 'we' can speak to the wider Iraqi populace consists of those universally recognisable verbs, by which I mean actions: fighting, defending, honouring, helping, staying.
Well done Lt. Bradley. He talks the talk.
Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 2, 2004 at 08:49 PMLooks like you guys are doing a 'good' job reining in your own rank and file.
I assure you America will lose this war.
God, y'know what? I've changed my mind. Thank you rhactive. Thank you. Death to Amerika!
Posted by: CurrencyLad at May 2, 2004 at 09:34 PMrhactive:
How are you going to assure that? Are you on the next flight to Iraq to personally start shooting Marines?
Fucking asshole.
I think Andrea needs to start posting IP addresses...
Posted by: david at May 2, 2004 at 10:04 PMHey 'rhactive' they have McDonalds outlets in Red Square, all your little commie buddies are on the asheap of history and your Islamist scumbag friends will soon join them. America's enemies don't have a great track record, do they? Poverty, internal war, tyranny and economic collapse.
So suck my spinning wheel, fucko. If America is forced out of Iraq it won't be Americans who die by the million, it'll be Iraqi muslims and, as usual, it'll be other Iraqi muslims pulling the triggers and digging the mass graves. Grow up, idiot.
Posted by: Amos at May 2, 2004 at 10:23 PM
One of our colleagues in Fallujah- "The problem is they know everything about us. They hear us coming, they know what vehicles we ride in and calculate how many in each vehicle," said Private First Class Joseph France, 19, of Batesville, Indiana.
"We know nothing about them. We don't know who they are. They know how to surprise us and they are resourceful with their weapons and know how to escape."
I don't like what rhactive has to say- but he's not far from the truth.
My fear is the US position is getting weaker not stonger. We've made several policy u-turns in the past month. We've lost 135 soldiers in April. We're not getting any popular in Iraq. There aren't any natural leaders amongst the Iraqis who would command nationwide respect at the moment. The IGC are muppets.
We've lost worldwide respect. I'd rather we disengage from this region rather than pour petrol on the fire.
Posted by: MarineGuy at May 2, 2004 at 11:39 PMWhere goeth young Timothy? It has been a day now that he has not made his presence felt, and I am getting worried...have the dark forces of the left, the venerable P. Adams at their head, captured him???
Posted by: Jimothy at May 2, 2004 at 11:52 PMAs requested, here is the list of rhetard -- I mean, rhactive's IPs:
81.86.83.70
81.86.95.224
81.86.224.111
81.86.255.58
81.86.87.157
81.86.72.208
81.86.81.37
Looking this up on Geo_byte dot com's* IP address locator reveals that this person is from or near Sheffield, UK. And he or she uses a Pipex.net connection. Have fun, children, but remember to clean up after yourselves.
*remove the underscore, the spaces, etc. -- MT-Blacklist does not like this url.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at May 3, 2004 at 01:11 AM"I assure you America will lose this war.
Posted by: rhactive at May 2, 2004 at 09:05 PM"
Still laughing...ok, Brit-twit, listen carefully: First, go read Belmont Club's assessment of the resolution of Fallujah. Quel surprise! Why, the Marines know what they're doing! Replacing and reinforcing Marine troops with Marine-trained Iraqis! Who'd a thunk it!
Second: Lose which war? The "war" (Baathist, Islamofascist uprisings in a Baath stronghold) in Iraq? Hello! We have pretty much done everything but the mopping up. The "war" in Afghanistan? (Oh, no! The heroin crops are really big! But that's a plus, as more junkies will self-Darwin...) They're building a Hyatt Regency in Kabul. Make your reservation now. I'm sure your warm reminiscences of the Taliban will be listened to with great hilarity by the natives.
The War on Terror? Um, gee, if there's a big deadly terrorist attack in the US, I guarantee you Mecca and Medina will be nothing but memories 24 hours afterwards.
In other words, we could have bombed the crap out of the entire Middle East--left it ALL a big shiny glass ocean--but we're the good guys, you fucking moron. And, deep in your evil, stupid little mind, you know that.
Now shut your cakehole, son, and let the grownups talk.
rhactive, I guess you don't read your own newspapers. Or do you think that Islamic fanatics are going to look for you before they command detonate that car bomb?
Or do you feel safe and cozy in your deep, dark hole?
In either case, don't push your sanctimonious twaddle on us -- many people do not share your perspective. Largely because our heads aren't up our arses.
Posted by: JeffS at May 3, 2004 at 03:53 AMHe's gone, folks, much like his sanity and any chance of a meaningful relationship with a real human being.
Ya'll do let this guzuntavalves get under your skin too much, doncha?
Nice and timely "kick me" sign action there, Andrea! I seem to recall him from Scrappleface and a few others some months back.
Posted by: geezer at May 3, 2004 at 05:41 AMDon't get too cosy guys.
You can't suppress the truth.
Is MarineGuy going to be banned for telling the truth?
"...from or near Sheffield"- I understand from this statement Andrea that you are not at all technically educated? Otherwise you would not have made such a foolish conclusion!!
America will lose in very big way guys. Don't think aboout the countries you have bombed or can bomb. Think about the sleeping giant you are prodding. Peace anytime soon? Don't think so.
Posted by: rhactive at May 3, 2004 at 10:37 PMAnd which sleeping giant would that be - your massive ego, rhactive?
Actually, I'm glad you've finally come out of the closet. When you first posted on this blog, you tried to blindside people with lots of wordy pseudo-arguments. That line of attack was blown to smithereens fairly quickly (the usual result when a loser like you makes up "facts" as he goes along), so you switched to snarky and usually off-topic comments, but that only got you laughed at even more than before.
And now you're reduced to openly cheering for America's demise. It's always fun to see leftoids like you expose themselves for what they really are all about. You've overstayed your welcome here, you may move on to another blog to troll now.
Posted by: PW at May 3, 2004 at 11:37 PMThe problem PW,is that people like you assume losing this war will lead to America's demise.
It won't. But it will achieve one thing. America will always think twice before invading another country without any legitimacy whatsoever -in the future. Iraq was suffiently degraded over 13 years before you guys stepped in- remember. Next time it will not be such a picnic.
You are receiving a bloody nose at the moment in Iraq. You are at your most weakest phase i.e a classic guerrilla war in an urban population; no sign of a strong Iraqi leadership to take the reins- yet.
135 dead in 4 weeks. 12 months on? Come on.
Another failed state maybe? That's the last thing the US needed right now. Thanks for your contribution to world peace.
And that IP address range? It's useless for anyone trying to target me. Anyone who knows anything about networks will already know that.
-Andrea take note.
See you around. I'll be watching and waiting.
Posted by: rhactive at May 4, 2004 at 02:57 AMAh, back to the wordy pseudo-arguments again, I see. The U.S. invaded "another country without any legitimacy whatsoever"...boy, that canard is so 2003. (Remember all those UN resolutions? No?)
Did you unsubscribe from the Leftist Talking Points mailing list by accident? You're way behind the times there.
Posted by: PW at May 4, 2004 at 01:20 PMSo, about MarineGuy, seriously, how many US Marines use to term "petrol" anyway? Was that the British version of Micah Wright or something?
Posted by: Sortelli at May 4, 2004 at 05:42 PM