Tim Blair

Japan is made of stronger stuff than to turn and run from that sort of barbarism, Tim.

Japan is made of stronger stuff than to turn and run from that sort of barbarism, Tim.

Absolutely! In fact, the Japs pretty much invented 20th century barbarism!

There is no way the Japanese Government will cut-n-run, like the Spanish did, or like my "mate" Bill (that fucking prick), so those hostages are as good as dead.

If they've got any suds they'll realise they are doomed, and take a few of those fucking Krauts with them.

Did I say "Krauts"? I meant Persians. My bad.

And whose side would the UN be going in on?

Corrections:

1. the 'Japs' didn't 'invent 20th century barbarism';

2. Iraqis aren't Persian.

Comment: looking forward to see how Japan responds to this outrage. Asia and Russia have already learnt: you DON'T piss off the Japanese. Maybe it's the Middle East's turn for that lesson?

“The situation in Iraq is getting worse -- so is it time to send in the UN?”

Talk about clueless.

Trouble is, we've got a botoxicated presidential candidate who's just as clueless.

Hilarious! After the UN bombing in Iraq, they couldn't get out of there fast enough! How easily that chickenshit move has been forgotten! Does anyone grasp why the UN is still so glorified, especially considering the corruption and graft of the Oil for food program?

I agree with engame. Japan invented the kamikaze attack, similar to the suicide bombings of today. I believe Japan will stick it out, but you never know. The entire world is pretty much against this war (or so it seems)...

I dunno about "the entire world," Oktober. I asked its representatives, some rocks in the parking lot, what they felt about this Iraq thing, but they just sat there. I put the World down as "still undecided."

I think there could be a lot of these. the terrorists have found that attacking the weaker members of hte coalition and threatening them seems to work.
The Japanese dont really like this war and really the US would be wise to keep their not particularly battle hardened forces out of the line of fire. Japan's expertise is engineering and money, they can do that from a distance.

The Sunrise program? You've gotta get off those chemicals, Tim.

I think you'll find that the ABC is showing Bananas in Pyjamas at the same time. It's both educational and completely unbiased. Watch it. Watch it all.

The UN those wonderful people responsible for 800,000 deaths in Rwanda.Read the Belmont Club
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/
When will these dicks learn that the UN hasn't got an army?

I wish all those people so enamoured with the U.N would pay attention to what happened in Rwanda ten years ago.

It's both educational and completely unbiased. Watch it. Watch it all.

Didn't David Marr, channeling Andrew Bolt, find the program promotes intellectual conformity?

Andrea, how about the people of the world then? and by the way, the rocks were talking to you, they just speak at such a high frequency that the human ear cannot hear it. :P

I think 20th century history might not be a good precedent for predicting how Japan will react to anything.

Japan and Germany have both become significantly more pacifistic since getting beaten to a pulp in World War II. I suspect some of their more aggressive tendencies might have been removed from the genepool.

On the other hand, if there's anything that can jolt the Japanese out of their pacifism and reignite their warrior spirit, seeing several Japanese citizens brutally murdered by terrorist cowards may be it.

If it worked for the Germans and Japanese in the 20th Century then let's give a go on the Islamofascists in the 21st Century!

By 2050, Iran, Syria, and Iraq will be the Switzerland, Sweden, and Canada of the Middle East!

Oktober:

If the "people of the world" are in favor of letting a homicidal dictator stay in power, then I don't give a flying fuck what the people of the world want, care about, or think.

Send in the clowns. Instead? Where are the clowns....
Oh, they be still trying to figure out what "serious consequences" are.

The UN determined that the situation in Iraq was still too dangerous for civilians and pulled out all their non-essential personnel. A decision you mock.

Now we have civilian personnel being kidnapped and threatened with being burned alive. It's terrifying, you say. Well, yeah it is.

But there's a disconnect between your two positions here that's pretty stark. Maybe you should put a sentence or two in between the place where you mock the UN and the place where you give the reason what the did was the smart thing to do. It would make your partisan status a little less obvious.

Just a suggestion.

Changing the subject a little:

looking at the casaulty board at CNN, there seems to be an awful lot of soldiers killed by non hostile gunshot wounds. Are these suicides or accidents (or both)? How do clasify a non hostile gunshot wound?

It's possible the Japanese thing is a hoax, or started out as a hoax. I don't know. Below came from LGF:

A Japanese Reader 4/8/2004 08:03PM PST

It seems like you guys aren't aware that these 3 Japanese civilians are anti-war lefties, actively against Japanese troop deployment in Iraq. Members of a non-profit organization. They remind me of Rachel Correy. One of them is a journalist(by contract) from Weekly Asahi (Asahi is kinda like BBC...anti-Japan/America, Pro-north korea/china).
Noriaki Imai, 18 year-old student activist, has his own group against war. Here's his homepage in Japanese... if you read in translation, you will know that he and others had same interest as the terrorist who kidnapped them.

link

And below is the link of Nahoko Takato (the kidnapped woman) translation work - " letters from Iraq"
Again in mostly in Japanese, but you can read English part of it.

link

Whatever their opinions are, kidnaping is kidnaping. Yet Japanese government is showing a strong attitude against those terrorists, which I think is great.

That besides, public opinion in Japan seems to split in two. Anti-war/Anti-deployment people who want the troops to come back to Japan. The type of person who'd say, " if those 3 civilians get killed, it's Koizumi's fault!". There are also conspiracy theories all over Japanese-internet that these 3 individuals are complicit in their own kidnaping.

some point out this;

Noriaki Imai posted in a thread, with the title "Big secreat Plan!" on April 7, 2004 09:57

" I have met the freelance journalist from Weekly Asahi today! After we chatted a while, he told me a big plan! It might be great. I think this will be a great achievement in history, and miss takato is also interested, so I think it's worth doing"
(translated by me)

Sorry my post was so raw but it does at least provide material for someone who understands Japanese to look into this a little more deeply than I can.

Fadzil: Yeah, "non-hostile gunshot wounds" sounds a lot like an oxymoron if not an impossibility, but what they mean is that the shots were fired by someone who was (technically at least) on the same side. This is sometimes also called "blue-on-blue" incidents: other Marines, civilian contractors or security guards, Iraqi police or army personnell, or other Coalition troops shoot at a poorly-identified target and end up bagging an American instead of a Jihadist. It happens. Everyone hates it, everyone trains to avoid it, but it happens.

miklos rosza, thanks for posting this info. Here is the link to LGF :)

Would that dizzy female host would be Melissa Doyle?

“The situation in Iraq is getting worse -- so is it time to send in the UN?”

Perfectly coiffed anchor: "We have Betty Whitebread on the scene at Floyd's Barbershop, where a previously tense situation has exploded into violence. What's the current situation, Betty."

Betty: "Well, perfectly coiffed anchor, two rival teen gangs, Opie's Oddballs and Otis's Ointment Drinkers, have been at odds for weeks over sidewalk-chalking rights in front of Floyd's Barbershop. The tense situation erupted this morning into violence when Otis, who oddly enough is not himself a teenager, unloaded what is purported to be a 1/2 inch spitball between Opie's eyes. The two sides have been exchanging spitball fire from positions behind various benches in front of this quaint gathering place for the last three hours."

Perfectly coiffed anchor: "Have you any word from the mayor's office or the sheriff's department?"

Betty: "The mayor took his Bel Air up to Danny's Chevrolet in Mt. Pilot for a tune-up and could not be reached for comment. We have not been able to reach the sheriff but we are told by reliable sources that he is pondering a response. Meanwhile, the exchange of fire has felled several members of the Garden Club who happened to be passing by and appears to be growing by the hour."

Perfectly coiffed anchor: "As you say, Betty, the situation at Floyd's Barbershop is getting worse -- and we have yet to hear from Sheriff Andy - so is it time to send in Deputy Fife?”

Betty: "That remains to be seen, perfectly coiffed anchor, but we will continue to keep you posted as events change."

Perfectly coiffed anchor: "Thanks for the report, Betty. Keep your head down and we'll be praying for you."

But there's a disconnect between your two positions here that's pretty stark. Maybe you should put a sentence or two in between the place where you mock the UN and the place where you give the reason what the did was the smart thing to do. It would make your partisan status a little less obvious.

There's not a disconnect. A lot of people want the US to hand Iraq to the UN. Yet when the going gets tough, the UN ran away. Yes, civilians got killed, tragically. But they had other options. Like improving their security on site, moving to another building, etc. Insteand they lammed out of town before you could say "UN Resolution!"

It's quite likely that the 3 Japanese are indeed "peace activists", which makes their kidnapping highly suspect. Ditto for the Arabs with the Israeli ID cards - plenty of Paleo nitwits have those, which is one of the problems.

In any case, nobody is going to negotiate with the Mad-i nuts. We'll send flowers, if needed.

David, I couldn't agree more. But look what happened in Spain. The problem is, too many people do not realize we are truly at war. Too many people honestly think this is just Bush's problem. 3/11 was not enough to convince Spain, just as 9/11 was not enough to convince half of the US. I often wonder how big the next attack will have to be to get it through their heads...

Go read Iraq The Model:

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/archives/2004_04_01_iraqthemodel_archive.html#108152812710601777

and then have a great Easter Weekend and feel free to ignore anything the media says about Iraq, ever.

No, for Gawd's sake don't send in the UN. They'll only fuck it up.

Coz, as we all know, this mission's already accomplished, innit?

Do the Iraqis what the UN to take over? No. The two countries they want to have the biggest role in rebuilding are the US and Japan. Go figure.

See Question 11 on page 13.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf

RAWK!! Because Pilger said so!! RAWK!!!

The Japs aint gonna run. These are the people that brought us the 'Devine Wind' aka Kamikaze and the rape of Nan King. I say we sick the Japs on these insurgents. Thousands of years of inate warrior culture that has been represed for the last 60 years.. let loose.

Nah! maybe not, the now pussy Jap population would not stand for it..pity really.

Coz, as we all know, this mission's already accomplished, innit?

Much of the mission is accomplished, Miranda. One thing is for sure, however, none of it could possibly be attributed to shit-for-brains wankers like you.

"Iraqi insurgents kidnapped three Japanese and two Arabs from Jerusalem..."

How did Iraqi terrorists get to Jerusalem, and what do the Israelis have to say about this?

This woman summs up most of the Australian media. They're not lying to us, they're just missing the point.

Hey Murph, doesn't the term 'wanker' only apply to blokes? ('Though I suppose since Miranda uses a nom-de-plume, she probably is a he.)

I can believe that the Iraqis don't want UN control. After all those years of "food for oil" corruption, I expect that the trust and confidence level regarding the UN must be pretty low in the eyes of the Iraqis.

And I don't blame them. About the only good thing coming out of the UN is a couple of places for diplomats to rally and bitch-slap each other.

Miranda -

What will you say when the flushing out of Sadr's militia and its destruction, eliminates obstacles to a turn over to the Iraqis?

I also presume you don't care Iran has the bomb or is damn close.

I enjoy those who believe they know more than everyone else, but are so blind to reality that they forget if the US let its guard down too often, there would be no trade, no development, no peace - no opportunity for you to show your glorious intellect - you would be among the first ones shot. Or you would get a propaganda position where you could lie to your fellow citizens about how benevolent your new masters are. Hey - maybe you are training right now?!?

I believe the three are fakes. I hope real Islamofascists have them, and realizing the need to save face, burn every one of them. Then they can become one with the earth, whom they no doubt worship - Gaia my god - ashes to ashes....

While I'm not an expert on Japanese culture, it does seem to me to be not that pacifistic. I'm sure there is a strain of it that is, like everywhere else, but probably not the majority.

I mean, look at their most famous movie export - giant monsters battling each other. Look at their video games. How many of them are violent? Most of them. Even their kiddie games often involve capturing little monsters and making them fight each other (Pokemon). They're still big on the whole samurai thing.

Now compare that to the Germans. They love David Hasselhoff!

"The UN determined that the situation in Iraq was still too dangerous for civilians and pulled out all their non-essential personnel. A decision you mock."

I think you are not familiar with that decision process. There is much to condemn in it. The head of UN security was just fired over neglegently allowing the bombing of the Canal Hotel. It was easily preventable, as well as predicted. There are other UN agencies working effectively in Iraq now, and all along -- the one who actually do things like vaccinate and set up schools.

Hey, Miranda. Are you saying the aircraft carrier did not accomplish its mission? I assume you think the sign instead declared the war over and a new regime in place. Thus you must have been surprised that these things were not the case? Maybe you should read less selectively, thus sparing yourself of many rude awakenings, unless you like them, of course, giving you a chance to emote, therefore, autoerotically. I'm seriously trying to understand the Liberal mind, if any.

"No, for Gawd's sake don't send in the UN. They'll only fuck it up.

Coz, as we all know, this mission's already accomplished, innit?"

Miranda's neighbor arranges to have his house extensively remodelled. Miranda thinks it's a bad idea. One month into the six-month project, a three-day rainstorm delays some exterior work, and she gloats that he's in over his head and should fire his bonded-and-insured professional remodeling contractors and hire Cletus and Dwayne, a couple of handymen she recently hired to install a lightswitch that subsequently nearly burned down her house. Neighbor politely declines the dingbat's advice and returns to the expensive, time-consuming, sometimes frustrating job that will eventually double the value of his home and improve the whole neighborhood. Miranda then returns to a life of snide carping about things not being instantaneously perfect.

Jem postulates: "I also presume you don't care Iran has the bomb or is damn close."

The quicker the better. How else will a balance of power be established in the Middle East? What, pray tell, has been achieved by having Israel as the only nuclear power in the region? Having Sharon's fat finger poised on the button has done absolutely fuck-all for stability in the region. If Iran joins the club the Arabs will finally have a seat at the only power breakfast that matters.

Only MAD can restore peace to the Middle East. Hey, it worked in the cold war, it can work again.

MAD worked in the Cold War for the simple reason that the Soviets were rational.

Miranda proves why we restrict the debate over important matters to humans. Get back on your perch, Miranda, or there'll be no new cuttlefish bone for you to peck on tonight.

"If Iran joins the club the Arabs will finally have a seat at the only power breakfast that matters."

How exactly would that work?

Jeremy

I'm no expert on Japanese culture, but as inexpert observer, I'd say that pre 1945 it was a complete warrior culture where death in battle, suicide for a cause or death in general mattered far less than honor. Think about the japanese soldiers who fought to the last on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Or the Kamikaze -- the first suicide bombers. (If only Condi Rice knew something about WWII maybe she couldn't have said with a straight face that no one could have predicted the use of a plane as a missile. The 9/11 attack was first described to me as a "kamikaze" crash).

Because WWII was such a disaster for Japan, the modern japanese culture turned pacifistic. How much of the old warrior culture remains is for someone else to advise, but pre 1945 Japan would not have given a second's thought to the lives of those hostages.

"If Iran joins the club the Arabs will finally have a seat at the only power breakfast that matters."

How exactly would that work?

RAWK!! Where's my burqa? RAWK!!

pj:

If only Condi Rice knew something about WWII maybe she couldn't have said with a straight face that no one could have predicted the use of a plane as a missile. The 9/11 attack was first described to me as a "kamikaze" crash

Sorry to pick on details, but the WWII kamikaze pilots flew single engine aircraft against warcraft. Pre-9/11, no one expected a kamikaze-style attack using airliners full of innocent people as missiles against buildings. EVERYONE (except the terrorists) was surprised by the sheer barbarism of the 9/11 attacks. And, yes, we were complacent. But Condi's remarks are entirely valid in that context.

As far as the post-1945 Japanese culture goes....I agree with you on that one. What little I know about modern Japan (been there once, read some books) suggests that they aren't quite the pacifists we might think they are. Perhaps only pragmatic. We'll have to ask someone who really knows.

Again, Miranda, your logic is very odd: if Israel having the "Bomb" has not deterred your friends the terrorists from trying to push it into the sea, how would Iran having nuc. capability discourage the terrorists. Have you noticed that the terrorists do not want a Palestinian state, so long as Israel exists, and probably don't care if one ever exists, regardless? They are terrorists, don't ja know? A side by side state existence could occur tomorrow if the terrorists were not simply terrorists by nature and trade.

I'm sticking to my interpretation that you get some kind of erotic kick out of garnering attention from your bizarre thought process, itself an autoerotic event stemming from an intentional misinterpretation of situations.

If Iran joins the [nuclear] club the Arabs will finally have a seat at the only power breakfast that matters.

Why would Iran give nuclear weapons to the Arabs?

"If Iran joins the club the Arabs will finally have a seat at the only power breakfast that matters."
-Miranda the clueless

Ah, Miranda, did you know that Iranians aren't Arabs?

Because WWII was such a disaster for Japan, the modern japanese culture turned pacifistic. How much of the old warrior culture remains is for someone else to advise, but pre 1945 Japan would not have given a second's thought to the lives of those hostages.
-jeffS

Yup. Pre-1945 Japanese probably would have expected them to kill themselves to apologize for the dishonor of being captured. Of all the societies in the world, that was one of the few that taking hostages would have no detectable effect on. Dunno about modern Japan.

Joe Peden -

(berating Miranda Divine)

"I'm sticking to my interpretation that you get some kind of erotic kick out of garnering attention from your bizarre thought process, itself an autoerotic event stemming from an intentional misinterpretation of situations."

... after your thought process of-
"Have you noticed that the terrorists do not want a Palestinian state, so long as Israel exists, and probably don't care if one ever exists, regardless? They are terrorists, don't ja know? A side by side state existence could occur tomorrow if the terrorists were not simply terrorists by nature and trade."

Amazing. Is this is an example of non bizarre thought process? Perhaps a semi-autoerotic event stemming from an unintentional misinterpretation of situations?

Here's a news flash folks. Israel will not tolerate Iran having the "bomb". I think we all know what that means. Right? There will never be a balance of power in the middle east. To believe otherwise is to be stupidly naive. Miranda it's time to take a taxi back to the planet, because even human beings are affected by Darwinism. Being stupid is quick way to the boneyard or dhimmitude, because evil and experience (the greatest of teachers) will chain the stupid to their fate.

Attacks against the US military during the last 12 months were largely localised in the Sunni heartland. So far the resistance had been confined to squads of ex-military/ex-baath fighters and most recently militia members in the Shia south. The American nightmare must now surely be the possible linking up of these 2 separate fronts into a national resistance movement. Such a campaign would then have popular broad base of support amongst Sunni and Shia alike- which would have national co-ordination.

This scenario is possible and if it does form then the US military will find it even harder to suppress the will of the people.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THE AMERICANS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS MUST UNDERSTAND- YOU CAN'T RULE A COUNTRY FROM A TANK. THEY NEED GRASS ROOT SUPPORT. WITH EVERY CIVILIAN THEY KILL - THEY ARE LOSING THE VERY LITTLE SUPPORT THEY DID HAVE.

Carlos, No.

AT THE END OF THE DAY THE AMERICANS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS MUST UNDERSTAND- YOU CAN'T RULE A COUNTRY FROM A TANK.

...yeah, Saddam only managed to do it for what, three decades?

rhetard, shouting in all-caps doesn't make your point any more compelling. Allow me to point out that the coalition is not "attempting to rule" Iraq "from a tank" so your premise is revealed as teenage hysteria. Please go back to updating your Friendster page and let the grownups handle the important stuff.

The current violence is incorrectly termed "uprising" by the media which are both stupid and malicious. This so called "uprising" signals the end of internal Iraqi resistence and the invasion of Iraq by Iran and Syria. Once the smoke clears, CPA and the Iraqi Governing Council should be able to make hay by informing the Iraqi populace that these troubles originate outside their borders. Of particular interest to Iraqis will be Persian meddling.

The date for handover now targeted as July 1 should be changed by 30 days to June 1.

rosignol -"AT THE END OF THE DAY THE AMERICANS AND THEIR SUPPORTERS MUST UNDERSTAND- YOU CAN'T RULE A COUNTRY FROM A TANK.

...yeah, Saddam only managed to do it for what, three decades?"

No- Saddam ruled through FEAR. His secret police network was everywhere. The Americans are only now setting up an indigenous intelligence network.
This frankly is now too late to stem the resistance movement against a foreign occupation.

Andrea- "rhetard, shouting in all-caps doesn't make your point any more compelling."

Yeah, and you're really compelling with your Friendster crap? (whatever that is!)

"Allow me to point out that the coalition is not "attempting to rule" Iraq "from a tank" "

Sure, so you think an American can now walk freely in central Iraq without any protection? Face it- if you can't walk alone in Iraq then you can't do business in Iraq.

Oh- by the way replace "tank" with any number of other words such as - Green Zone, Apache, Bradley........the choice is yours.

Just add to the debate without putting others down.

Dean- "uprising" signals the end of internal Iraqi resistence and the invasion of Iraq by Iran and Syria. "

Sure blame other people for America's fuck-up!

Rosignal:

Because WWII was such a disaster for Japan, the modern japanese culture turned pacifistic. How much of the old warrior culture remains is for someone else to advise, but pre 1945 Japan would not have given a second's thought to the lives of those hostages.
-jeffS

I didn't say that, pj did. I just agreed with him. Credit where credit is due.

rhactive:

Once again you are assuming that America is Evil, and will Fail Because America is Evil.

That argument is like watching a dog chase his own tail.

First of all, the media overdramatizes events all the time. It's what sells advertising. And that is NOT a cynical view.

While we have a major problem in Iraq, that doesn't mean we are failing in Iraq. The power handover date hasn't changed. Right now, the problems come from Sunni/Baathist terrorists and radical Shi'ites. Strategically, little has changed. Tactically, the enemy has tipped their hand, and exposed themselves to direct fire.

And there was a security problem in Iraq before this uprising. So that is merely a statement of fact, not a compelling argument. Big deal. We are not ruling "from a tank", i.e., by force of arms. If we were, there wouldn't be an uprising, now would there?

If you want to be hysterical, go off to some corner.

Wow -- rhnegative is so knowledgeable. Where else would I have learned the bizarre way Iraqis do "business"? "Before you do can do business with us, American, you must walk alone through the city! Bwahahaahaha!" And then we have to snatch a pebble from an imam's hand.

'Scuse me, I forgot to put "uprising" in quotes above --- typing to fast.

Bluntly put --- this ain't an uprising. Oh, sure, maybe if you put blinders on, squint at the problem, and ignore that the increased violence is in limited areas, maybe it is an "uprising" right there.

But it's not an uprising in the hysterical manner that rhactive puts forth.

Andrea- "Where else would I have learned the bizarre way Iraqis do "business"? "Before you do can do business with us, American, you must walk alone through the city! Bwahahaahaha!"" And then we have to snatch a pebble from an imam's hand. "

Is it just me- or are not making any sense whatever?

rhactive:

"Is it just me- or are not making any sense whatever?"

It's just you.

I concur. It's just you.

Iraq is a democracy now. That is why we fought and won the war. Don't you remember how we trained all those policeman to enforce the law. If someone has been kidnapped, the concerned family members need only ring the police station and i'm sure they will do their best to solve the case. Remember, most missing persons turn up pretty soon.

Jeffs- apologies to yourself and PJ for the misquote. I'll be more careful in future.

That's OK, Rosignol. It really doesn't matter, especially since you make sense in your posts, unlike whatshisname, rhetard. No, wait, isn't that rhibbit? Sorry, rhubarb!

Dang it! I'll get it.....ummmmm, rhadioctive! That's it!

Gee Collymuir what a clever post - bet you thought you hit just the right tone of sophisticated sarcasm there. Only problem is it's the typical "empty suit" potshot comment. It is easy to snipe but it is tough making a coherent case as to what should have been done instead of changing the Saddam regime. And frankly, I haven't seen one from the left yet. War is never a good option. It is taken when the alternative seems to have more risks. It was taken in this case because the alternative was basically to continue with the same shit that had gone on for ten years. The definition of insanity is continuing to do the same things and expecting different results. The situation we faced in the Middle East is like a metastasizing cancer -- one in which the tumor is entwined with blood vessels so do we risk trying to operate on the tumor now and possibly even spread the cancer or continue with the radiation treatments and chemotherapy (that don't seem to be working very well) and hope for the best? The risk is that as the tumor continues to grow it becomes ever more dangerous and risky to remove and ultimately it will be impossible to operate at all.

Anyone who was for the war knew it entailed many risks and anticipated the kind of things happening now. War against a motivated, entrenced opponent is generally a long-term effort in which battles will be won & lost. The will to win is paramount. My biggest fear in the run up to the war was not the problems with the enemy but rather ourselves. The country is divided on the issue but the media is definitely anti-Iraq war and they have the power to influence the public opinion with their spin so that tilts the balance into the anti-war camp with the requirement that everything go perfect, which is unrealistic. The other side knows that they do not have to prevail in the conflict, they only have to cause enough trouble for the media Chicken Littles to destroy political support. Shit, they wouldn't taking us on if they didn't believe our moral dissolution makes us vulnerable.

The antiwar contingent will never forgive us for not trying drumming circles and moon chants to rid Iraq of Saddam before resorting to war.

JeffS - "Bluntly put --- this ain't an uprising. Oh, sure, maybe if you put blinders on, squint at the problem, and ignore that the increased violence is in limited areas, maybe it is an "uprising" right there."

Sure - you make a lot of sense 'JeffS'. Maybe it 'isn't' an uprising and maybe 62 US servicemen 'didn't' die in the last 5 days!
Wake up please!!

Andrea- "The antiwar contingent will never forgive us for not trying drumming circles and moon chants to rid Iraq of Saddam before resorting to war."

Let's rephrase: The antiwar contingent will never forgive us for not trying to avoid an inhumane war; which has led to increased terrorism in the short and long term, over 10,000 civilians dead, over 700 'coalition' troops dead and 10,000 US troops wounded and reduced credibility in the eyes of the world especially the muslim world.

People- if you're so proud of America's brand of freedom- digest this and then think if you've actually improved relations with the people of this important country:

"In occupied Iraq, Baghdad resembles a sprawling military camp.

Coils of barbed wire snake around many businesses, educational institutions, government buildings and, of course, US military bases.

Concrete barriers, ranging from one to two-and-a-half metres, have sliced major streets in two, surrounded hotels and government institutions. In upscale neighbourhoods, including Mansur where a number of embassies are housed, armed men patrol the streets.

US occupation forces conduct their patrols in pairs of armoured vehicles, zooming through the capital’s streets. On the second vehicle there is usually a soldier pointing his machine gun at civilian cars.

It is a constant, grim reminder for Iraqis of who is in charge.
Iraqis living there need to navigate through rigorous US checkpoints, where they wait for hours until testy occupation soldiers start inspections. Soldiers, who often do not speak Arabic, shout orders in English at approaching cars. Their Iraqi translators are not always on hand.

Sayf describes how occupation forces comb his car on a daily basis: they open the bonnet, trunk and interior and search them all before letting him pass through.

US checkpoints in the capital have left motorists frustrated

"This is a prison, not freedom," he says. "We used to watch the Palestinians on television and feel bad for them. Now we are living the same thing… They have a wall and we have many walls," he said, referring to the concrete barrier Israel is constructing cutting off parts of the occupied West Bank.

Iraqis blame occupation forces for the most recent indignities. "It was better before. We were free to move around," says Sayf.

Humiliation at home

Waiting at a checkpoint in their own country for foreign forces to wave them through is humiliating, they say.

"We thought things would get better, but it seems to be getting worse and worse," says Ahmad.

He has chosen to rent an apartment outside the Green Zone, "because I can't wait every day for two or three hours to get home".
The zone has also made Baghdad’s streets chaotic.

One of the capital's seven vital bridges, Jisr al-Muaalaq, has been sealed off. It provided passage from Karrada in central Baghdad to the other half of the city. Motorists are forced to travel through the leafy - and once quiet - residential area of Qadasiyya.

Strict security checks are part of a daily routine for Iraqis

Residents of this up market neighbourhood are frustrated by the extra traffic and the concrete barrier that has sprouted in the middle of their district.

About 2m high and 2km long, the wall encloses the residencies of some of the Iraqi Governing Council members, including Kurdish leader Jalal Talabani, and some media outlets, such as the US government-funded television station al-Hurra." (By Amal Hamdan, Al-Jazeera-http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/541EF6CC-3BB1-4A7F-B158-2DC893964CD4.htm)

And that report is dated 5th March 2004.

Just ask yourselves again- have you actually improved relations with the people of this important region?

At end of the day America has already lost the intellectual war. That is why they have resorted to brute force to impose their political will.

John PV- "The situation we faced in the Middle East is like a metastasizing cancer."

Let's rephrase- "The situation we faced in the the US was like a metastasizing cancer based in Washington. This cancer was bombarding our nations with bombs and leaflets and sending their troops to oppress and die. That tumour had to be taken out before it spread to other countries."

You have to realise John that these are opposing ends of the same view. They are thinking the same thing as you because of the actions of the US.

rhactive:

Y'know, Sincerity Slips likes to throw links at us to make his point. You just cut and paste. But at least you are trying to make a point.

Yes, Bagdhad is an armed camp. So are most cities. I can see that it's frustating.

But does this article reflect the attitidue of the majority of Iraqis? I've always regarded articles that quote a few people and then conclude everyone is opprossed as being yellow journalism. An attempt to manipulate us.

And it is really suspect coming from someone who was just chastised for screaming hysterically. Which you are still doing, in a toned down way.

Either we are in Iraq to win, or we are not. There can be no half measures. That includes security for our troops against terrorists. Who don't mind using young children as shields, you might recall. Y'know, ruthless.

If some Iraqis complain about restricted travel, at least they can complain without fear of being shot. That's a good step in the right direction.

Stop complaining, rhactive. Most of your arguments still assume that America Is Evil (TM), and That You Are Right Because You Hate The West (TM).

Sorry Rhactive that argument doesn’t hold up in the way you are positing it. There was no growing “cancer” in the US to confront or go to war with Islamofascism. Quite the opposite is true. The ever-deepening economic and social failure and resultant malaise in the Islamic world was the cancer. The dangerous thing to us was the belief in that world that we were the ones responsible. We were used as the scapegoats for all their failures. This is no different than Nazi Germany, which used the Jews as the scapegoats for all ills. The “cabal of Jewish bankers” was responsible for the unreasonable terms of the Versailles treaty that sent Germany into bankruptcy and the hyperinflation that wiped out the life savings of most ordinary citizens. It was the “Jews” who were fomenting for a communist take over of Germany. It was the “Jews” who, because of their nefarious economic control, were going to destroy Germany’s culture and way of life. There was the same call to ancient myths and ideals: the Aryan peoples and their pure warrior and nativistic ideals were going to be destroyed by the materialistic, money grubbing, usurious ways of “Jew” controlled world.

That kind of thinking was allowed to go unchecked. When a whole society is living in a fantasy world it doesn’t just go away. Ultimately it had to be confronted. But by the time it was, the horse was already out of the barn and the cost was astronomical.

The Arab Muslim world, in particular, is laboring under some dangerous fantasies. Instead of coming to grips with the issues of the 21st century they are regressing into tribal and religious beliefs of a millenium ago. The reason for that is they have wealth and influence only because of the oil they sit on and therefore they have not been required to accept modern social and economic practices that any other society must go through before they have a similar amount of wealth and influence.

If you think you can negotiate people into accepting what they see as their cultural annihilation you are nuts. These people hate us because of our social and sexual mores. Our wealth and power is what makes us dangerous to them but isn’t why they hate us. The left wants to position it as a political thing – the irony is that the holy grail of the left: secular humanism is anathema to Islamofascists. Leftists are the ones who have the most to lose but they refuse to confront that reality. They have fallen into the trap that their cushy liberal life style is the natural order of things and it will never require any behavior that is outside of their insulated comfort zone.

JeffS-"Either we are in Iraq to win, or we are not."

Win what, may I ask? Whats the benchmark? If muslim opinion was divided a year ago- it sure isn't now. Hearts and minds worlwide are deeply suspicious of the US now more than ever. And it is in this environment that anti-US activities will flourish.

You think Saddam would have tolerated private militia on the streets of Kut or AQT training camps in the hills of Kirkuk? Never.

JeffS- "There can be no half measures. That includes security for our troops against terrorists."

What about security for the people? They have been sanctioned and bombed for the past 13 years. The US have kiled over 10,000 in the past 12 months alone. (lets not even count the number since '91.)

If you want to talk about terror- treat all people equal please.

JeffS- "If some Iraqis complain about restricted travel, at least they can complain without fear of being shot. That's a good step in the right direction."

Oh sure gun crime, kidnapping and robbery is at an all time low now!! These measures are really paying off. (JeffS- it's called force protection. The Americans do not feel safe in the capital city.)

JeffS- "Stop complaining, rhactive. Most of your arguments still assume that America Is Evil (TM), and That You Are Right Because You Hate The West (TM)."

Stop complaining because the truth hurts? America is NOT evil. It's the regime that has lead the Americans into an evil foreign policy.

And how can I hate the West when I am a product of the West? All I am saying is - stop treating the world like your playground. You think the Russians, Indians and Chinese are not learning lessons from this??

We need to build allies, not create enemies.

AWK! ACK! AWK AWK AWK! ACK ARCKKK AWWKK!! ACCKAKAKAKAWWKAKAWKAWK!

[In the interests of time and sanity the Parrot-English translating device has been turned off for the evening.-- The Management.]

JohnPV- Wholly agree with your earlier piece about Nazi Germany's hatred of Jews.

JohnPV-"The Arab Muslim world, in particular, is laboring under some dangerous fantasies. Instead of coming to grips with the issues of the 21st century they are regressing into tribal and religious beliefs of a millenium ago. "

Quite the contrary. The Arab/muslim states have been weak and disunited for a long time now. They have allowed many acts of aggression on their soil by an outside power since 1914 and have accepted it as their fate. It's these aggresive acts and the double standards that accompany these acts that is breeding extremism.

Most of the dictatorships of that region are far from being puritanical Islamic regimes. Yes, Saudi Arabia is, and openly propagates it's version of Islam world-wide.

On the whole though they are either socialist/Baathist/[or even right-wing] presidential regimes or absolute monarchies.
On the whole far from propagating Islam (or it's variants), they suppress it.

Because most muslim regimes are allies of America, and their number one priority is to preserve their power-base- which is usually guaranteed by America.

Furthermore the most populous muslim countries in the world are functioning democracies already- Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh. (albeit not Arab!)

I agree John, muslims will regress- BUT only if this war does not stop. Many will regress into extremism. But let's remember they are not labouring in 'fantasy'!

The reality on their home ground is - occupation, humiliation, puppet governments and dictatorial regimes - sometimes courtesy of the US taxpayer.

I AGREE that muslims need to sort out a lot of problems and shouldn't blame everything on America.

But if anything- they should be stronger (militarily and economically), more independent of the US, more united and should work for Islam much more, and not allow themselves to be unilaterally attacked like they have been since the end of the Cold War.

I appreciate the debate, JohnPV- not 'name-callers' like Andrea.

rhactive:

"Stop complaining because the truth hurts? America is NOT evil. It's the regime that has lead the Americans into an evil foreign policy. "

Jeez, guy, cut back on the caffeine! If you keep at this, your keyboard will get glued into uselessness from your frothing. Then where will you be? Your board banging, screaming arguments are little more than shouted "facts", either twisted or false, selected to support your views.

Taken one at a time, your facts tend to have some basis in truth. Some basis, but not much. But to support your conclusion that we have an evil foreign policy, and what happened to the Arab is all our fault? Nope. It's not even close.

Again, again, and yet again you argue from assumptions. You state the current regime is evil, or at least into an "evil foreign policy". This is another variation of "Bush Is Evil", a subset of "America Is Evil".

Do you think that our problems started on 9/11? When Bush was elected? When Bush Sr was elected? Earlier? WWII? The Civil War? The Dred Scott Decision? No, wait, you mentioned 1914 before this. Wrong!

Let me give you a hint -- Osama bin Laden stated that one grudge of his was that the Moors were driven from Spain. That was in 1492, five hundred and twelve years ago!!!!

Now, since 1492 is well before 1914, don't you think that maybe this problem is pre-America? Eh? Why do I think that? If you remember other history, 1492 was when Columbus discovered the New World.

Now there are a couple, simple facts. Think about them, if you will. Maybe the Arabic culture is just a tad prone to blaming their problems away? A little bit?

And if that is the case, perhaps the "evil American foreign policy" is in fact a valid response to a truly evil foreign policy (i.e., that of the Islamofascists).

I don't expect you to listen -- you clearly want to argue your point, right or wrong, because it's your cause, and that's all that matters. But I'll say it anyway, and pee on you if you don't like it:

America is not the enemy here. A bunch of well-trained barbarians, supported by useless idiots around the world, are the enemy. They are the ones who would be glad to kill hundreds of people simply to change the course of a national election. They would kill thousands to make a political point. If left unchecked, what would be next? Millions of casualties because we didn't bow down to their desires? Is that the kind of world that you want?

Don't bother answering, rhactive; the question is not rhetorical, but you are. Take your medication and go to bed. That way the nurses can strap you down for a nice long rest.

I do think it's time that the all-rhactive channel was turned off for the night. Nighty-nite, rhactive, sleep tight. There. No name calling. Feel better?

Stupid smug baby wanker.

Andrea- "Stupid smug baby wanker."

I refuse to stoop down to your level. And remember - it's you who got wound up first.

(Bitch)

JeffS- "Taken one at a time, your facts tend to have some basis in truth. "

Thank you

"But to support your conclusion that we have an evil foreign policy, and what happened to the Arab is all our fault? "

I did not say that. Please don't make me repeat myself: "I AGREE that muslims need to sort out a lot of problems and shouldn't blame everything on America."

But America's double standards policy and huge military presence in the region makes things worse. Does the US have a similar policy in black Africa? Frankly, I don't know- I don't think so.

JeffS- "You state the current regime is evil, or at least into an "evil foreign policy". This is another variation of "Bush Is Evil", a subset of "America Is Evil".

Is war (and willingness to wage war) not evil? Yes I agree - sometimes it is a necessary evil. But most wars are not necessary. The support of brutal dictatorships is also a kind of evil. I believe America is guilty on both counts.

America is a great country to be proud of- but viewed from abroad it is seen by many people as an evil monster.

JeffS- "Do you think that our problems started on 9/11? When Bush was elected? When Bush Sr was elected? Earlier? WWII? The Civil War? The Dred Scott Decision? No, wait, you mentioned 1914 before this. Wrong!

Let me give you a hint -- Osama bin Laden stated that one grudge of his was that the Moors were driven from Spain. That was in 1492, five hundred and twelve years ago!!!!"

By 1914, I meant the break-up of the Ottoman caliphate in 'recent' muslim history. Again, I agree mostly this point, JeffS- But that is Bin Ladens problem. You don't think like that, I don't, most sane people don't. The Spainish Reconquest happened because the muslims became weak and complacent. Bin Laden is a problem and he must be eliminated there is no issue there.

JeffS- ""evil American foreign policy" is in fact a valid response to a truly evil foreign policy (i.e., that of the Islamofascists)."

Maybe. But when America responds - why does it act as a recuiting ground for these extremists? Remember Islamofascism is not a country with a foreign policy that can be attacked! It is a mindset. You used these guys in the 80s when you needed them most (against the commies). But now you don't need them -so you bomb them? What about Israel? Why do you ignore their flouting of UN resolutions?

JeffS- "I don't expect you to listen -- you clearly want to argue your point, right or wrong, because it's your cause, and that's all that matters. But I'll say it anyway, and pee on you if you don't like it:"

Not at all. I agree with some of what you say. It's just you can't defeat terror with terror.
It didn't happen in Belfast or Beirut so why the Gulf?

JeffS- "They would kill thousands to make a political point. If left unchecked, what would be next? Millions of casualties because we didn't bow down to their desires? Is that the kind of world that you want?"

10,000 Iraqis civilians killed. Who needs security, the Americans or the Iraqis?

Again I agree. So when Russia, India, China, Phillipines, Uzbekistan kill thousands of their muslims - the US will intervene? Is that the kind of world you want as well?

Give people a reason to help the US. Not despise it or fear it.

JeffS- "Don't bother answering, rhactive; the question is not rhetorical, but you are. Take your medication and go to bed. That way the nurses can strap you down for a nice long rest."

Thanks for the concern but there is a lot important work to do.

rhactive-

Oh, I wondered when it would be all Israel's fault for violating UN resolutions. And you were beginning to make sense.

The UN is one of the largest anti-semetic organizations in the world and you question why Israel flouts their resolutions? I don't see the UN as being worthy of any moral barometer at all. Remember oil for food?

Israel is far from perfect. However, the islamofascists are, .... what?

You do an excellent job of blurring the history to support a position which essentially says we should outsource our foreign policy to the UN and make nice so people like us. I am not opposed to acting nice when it is in our interest. Right now, if the west loses its backbone, Europe is gone, probably within a generation or two. Islam must be modernized - now - or it will be too late. I would be willing to consider your points a little more if I had any reason to believe our opponent was rational. Your arguments are based upon a certain rationality of our opponents. That rationality doesn't exist. If you don't acknowledge that, you are destined to failure. And failure probably means your death and mine and our families. That is unacceptable.

JEM-
"The UN is one of the largest anti-semetic organizations in the world and you question why Israel flouts their resolutions? I don't see the UN as being worthy of any moral barometer at all. Remember oil for food?"

I agree the UN is ineffective. But why then does the sole superpower use it as a foreign policy tool when it complies and then lambasts it when it is not so compliant? Be one or the other: Either the US takes the rough with the smooth in the UN or it should totally play alone outside.

JEM- "You do an excellent job of blurring the history to support a position which essentially says we should outsource our foreign policy to the UN and make nice so people like us. I am not opposed to acting nice when it is in our interest."

I agree- see above. I didn't mean to insinuate the US should outsource.

JEM- "Right now, if the west loses its backbone, Europe is gone, probably within a generation or two."

I don't whether you mean militarily, idealogically or in terms of population. But one thing is for sure there are already a number muslim nations in Europe (In the Balkans and in the Russion interior) and to think that situation could change in 2 generations is nonsense and pure Islamophobia! Islam has had a
foothold in Europe for a long time.

JEM- "Islam must be modernized - now - or it will be too late."

I agree that muslims must modernise and better their situation- but how do you propose to modernise the religion of Islam??

Pray 1 time a day instead of 5? Remove verses from the Qu'ran which don't sound right? You can't modernise something which people believe is the divine word of God!

This same argument has been raging within the Christian and Jewish faiths i.e. between reformists and conservatives. That argument has still not reached a conclusion. And believe me, there are similar strands of opinions within muslims. Also, there is no central administration of Islam unlike the Vatican or Church of England.
Any leadership that muslims did have was destroyed in 1921 (the Ottoman Caliphate), which like the UN also became ineffective.

JEM- "I would be willing to consider your points a little more if I had any reason to believe our opponent was rational. Your arguments are based upon a certain rationality of our opponents. That rationality doesn't exist. If you don't acknowledge that, you are destined to failure. And failure probably means your death and mine and our families. That is unacceptable."

Again JEM I agree and acknowledge that. But as I said before the irrational guys are not the selfish Presidents and Prime Ministers of the muslim world. It's likely to be the dispossesed and the suppressed!

But what's the solution? Kill more people which will increases the extremists' popularity? Or seek co-operation and strategic partners who matter and are legitimate. Stop talking about freedom and democracy. You actually attacked one of the few countries that was secular and progressive with the help of neighbouring dictatorships, The Al-Sabah family of Kuwait, the Hashemites of Jordan etc etc. Was the gassing of Kurds finally too much to ignore? It's hypocrisy- American style.

As I said earlier- the key factor is how do the people of the region view America's activities? As one Arab said: I wish our people never had oil.

This is !

This [censored] is [censored]! But then they [censored] would, wouldn't they. [****]mire.