Tim Blair

Sound advice from Bubba LeRoy Mufti.

In the article the "journalist" says:

"In an address marking the end of the holy month of Ramadan, Sheik Taj el-Din al Hilaly also made a veiled criticism of the Prime Minister, John Howard, with whose foreign policy he disagrees."

The "journalist" then goes on to discuss soemthing else, and gives us no quote from the Sheik to prove this assertion. Is that knee-jerk anti-Howardism or what? God, I hate the Silly Moaning Hilmer!

The "Australia - Love It or Leave It" slogan was, I believe, started many years ago by someone unknown.

More recently Sydney radio host John Laws ran a campaign to get people to put bumper stickers of similar message on their cars.

Bob Carr did not start it.

I wonder how Tim missed this part of the Sheik's sermon:

"Ramadan gives witness in front of God about the wrong and destructive American foreign policy," he said, adding the time was right for Americans to choose a government "not described as terrorist, nor one that practises oppressive policies against people in other countries."

"Love it or leave it" is fine - few would disagree with it, but it is simplistic.

Of course the conservative subtext is "love it exactly the way it is", whilst the progressive subtext is "love it so much that you never stop pushing for improvement"

Improvement, naturally, requires the appointment of a new Prime Minister.

Nemo, loving it means accepting that Australia isn't a Moslem state; that the values of a Moslem minority can't be imposed on the non-Moslem majority; that women don't have to go around veiled; that they are not sex objects for rapists; and that Australia has the right to define its own national interests and that if the majority of Australians believe that involves supporting the USA,so be it.

The Fairfax journo would have to put the party line spin on it. Whatever.

In any case, they do love it, and they're not leaving. The Australian experience tends to open eyes to the tolerant nature of this society, despite the posturings of the left.

More from today's Herald Sun.

'Tolerance is the word the terrorist fears most.'

'A true Muslim cannot be a terrorist and a terrorist cannot be a true Muslim.'

Well said. And welcome.

Australia? Love it or leave it, lefties.

As a migrant myself I have no problem in accepting the mainstream culture with its traditions and customs, and any migrants has to respect that.

My question is in the 'take it'. I am a migrant and I became an Australian citizen as soon as I could. I want Australia to be a republic and the flag changed so it does not have somebody's else flag on it.

Now...should I be told to 'leave' because I want to change some of the basics of how Australia is at the moment?

When we are told to take it, what exactly are we told to take, what parameters are we supposed to follow?

My objection to the 'take or leave it' argument is that it can imply that migrants are supposed to be thankful everyday that they live in the best country in the world and shut up.

It is important to highlight the term of 'citezenship' in the broader sense. That is that once a migrant has decided to become an integral part of the Australian community, by taking up citizenship and participating in a democratic debate, the migrant has the right of challenge the way Australia is, or is being governed as anybody else.

Hey Guido- add fighting in 2 world wars to make and keep this Country what it is to the citizenship role.
Until then be bloody grateful this country gave you the priceless gift of citizenship and when your family has been here for a generation or two and made a real contribution and really got to know something about this country THEN start whingeing about my flag and my constitution.
If you cant take that then leave it.
Hope this helps.

... or else you could exercise your rights as a citizen of a free country to tell Lawrie to stick it up his arse.

Guido's broader point is correct in that does everyone expect the migrants to shut up forever?

It's common sense. When you're first invited into someone's house, don't criticise the decor, OK?

But once you marry their daughter, you can say what you like, well within reason, maybe don't slag off at the mother's cooking.

Guido = Ben Butler

guido : I want Australia to be a republic and the flag changed so it does not have somebody's else flag on it.

How do the Italians and the Mexican manage? They have the same flag, which is just a Hungarian flag hung sideways.

The Austrian flag is a Peruvian flag sideways, which is the Canadian flag, minus the maple leaf.

The the Indonesian flag is the Polish flag upside down.

However, the locals recognise their own flag, and that's what matters.

guido : I want Australia to be a republic and the flag changed so it does not have somebody's else flag on it.

How do the Italians and the Mexican manage? They have the same flag, which is just a Hungarian flag hung sideways.

The Austrian flag is a Peruvian flag sideways, which is the Canadian flag, minus the maple leaf.

The Indonesian flag is the Polish flag upside down.

However, the locals recognise their own flag, and that's what matters.

And I'm sure the Mufti meant every word.

Guido's point is a good one. I would say that as soon as he became a citizen of this fair land he had the right to urge us to change our institutions. I think his suggestions are wrong, but I respect him for wishing to air them.

I think the take or leave it concept relates more to the genuine Austrlain tolerance and moral sense. Thus, if a new arrival wants to change the country so radically that we are no longer the wonderful, easy-going, free society that we took many years to establish, I would suggest that he or she buggers off.

Indeed, Toryhere. Mind you, my Scottish in-laws haven't stopped whinging since they got off the plane forty years ago. (Actually I think it was the boat, they took the cheaper option.) It's not that they want to change anything radically, it's just that they enjoy complaining - it seems to be some kind of national sport with them. I have been unsuccessful in convincing them that suburban Glasgow is really a very nice place these days; and they insist on continuing to enjoy our hospitality, sunshine, virtually free healthcare, the best and cheapest fresh food in the world, inexpensive golf, cold beer, the warm Mediterannean-style climate and generous social services. (However, if the Government were to ban the importation of Scotch whisky, I'm sure they'd be back to Old Blighty like a shot.)

I'll leave the flag debate for another time (it's a Pandora's box!)

I would argue that if a migrant, willingly and by his free choice, becomes an Australian citizen - that's shows a strong commitment to his/her new country. The migrant is not there just because of birth. The migrant states by his actions that he/she accepts the laws of Australia (it's is actually in the oath), and I think within that framework the migrant has a right to participate fully in the democratic process.

On a personal note ....I even had to swear eternal allegiance to Elizabeth the Second Queen of Australia and her successors (AAGHH!) That's shows some commitment!

The fact is that any migrant or me has diddly squat chance of changing the flag, or make Australia become a republic if the rest of Australia does not want to.

And lots of migrants would agree with people on this forum. Much to my chagrin and astonishment many of the most enthusiastic supporters of Howard's border protection laws during the last elections were Labor voting post-war Italian migrants.

Maybe it's because they value all the great attributes of this country so much Guido.

You're right about making a commitment earning you the right to compete fully in robust debate. Interestingly, my whinging in-laws have never become Australian citizens. (Being chippy Scots, they reflexively hate the Queen and anything to do with England anyway!)

The flag is indeed a Pandora's Box - if you were able to ask a World War Two digger whether he was dying for the flag design or what it represented, surely the latter. The best traditions reside in attitudes.