Tim Blair

funny, my understanding of 'pendejo' is literally a pubic hair, and the useage is more "asshole/wimp". somehow i don't think a guy named 'rene' would survive very long using such a term around tillman.

He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11

Only a dope would think that.

with teeth that big they'd make an excellent target for my size 10's - what an asshat, oops ass-sombrero mi amigo.

Sounds like a certain little jumped-up dumbfuck is about to learn that the aura of minority status holyness that surrounds him on the cringing PC American campus has limits.

Judging by the utter outrage in the feedback section the bouncing ball of justice is already on it's way.

"In my neighborhood in Puerto Rico"? You worthless piece of shit.

Unfortunately I've met this type before - in every class year there's someone like Rene. Unfortunately I would imagine that this (fully justified) anger about his loathsome editorial has him squealing orgasmically in delight at his virtual martyrdom. I'll bet his next column is about all the death threats he's allegedly received and how courageous he is for (gasp!) reading all those nasty words. Rene, here's a bit of Puerto Rican slang, just for you. Tu eres un pato.

I hope that as a grad student he is studying something a little more relevant than he did as an undergrad. But in his own mind, I sure he's believes that he can handle/do anything.

The level of his writing does not reflect well upon the institution that chose to admit him for graduate studies.

There's an editorial response here. They're taking the position that this was an important voice that stirred debate and, if they had not run this piece, it would've somehow violated the 1st amendment (note- editorial discretion has nothing to do with the first amendment). So look for more debate-stirring columns in the future such as "NAMBLA: just misunderstood" and "Did the Holocaust really happen?"

Rene will get what’s coming to him.

And I sincerely hope it involves baseball bats, lemon juice, and Certs breath mints.

Also note that University president Jack Wilson says the op-ed piece was "disgusting, arrogant and intellectually immature."

I might have been able to respect the Collegian's editorial response if it had added, "In fact the Collegian strongly disagrees with Gonzalez's opinion."

Just walk away Rene.
You won't see Pat shadow you back home.
Died guarding freedoms that you commies try to game.
You are to blame.

"Rene will get what’s coming to him. Picture him a couple of decades from now, struggling to explain his youthful extremism to party officials or journalists or voters. It isn’t easy; just ask John Kerry."

Yeah, and he'll have to answer those questions after a 20 year career in the US Senate. Kid's got a bright future in the Democratic Party.

Majoring in African-American Music and Jazz Studies?!
And there was me thinking my English Lit degree was the biggest possible waste of 4 years.

Que coño.

It says something about the state of higher education that this cabron can't make the simple connection of "Al-Qaeda kills 3,000" - "Al-Qaeda is based in Afghanistan" - "We attacked Afghanistan". It's true that for many people, 9/11 never happened. Or it "just happened", like a tornado or something.

Yes, we all know the definition of REAL courage is to hide behind a word processor and make fun of dead people.

In your neighborhood they have a word for what it takes to be in the Rangers: cojones. Go find some.

Any discussion of 9/11/2001, Rene? I didn't think so.

Here's a couple of sad notes. First I live in Massachusetts so I am paying for this degenerate's education through my state taxes. I'd rather the money went to sending him back to his little cesspool of an island.

Second, for those of you outside of Massachusetts, U Mass itself is a cesspool of degenerates like this so for a large number of U Mass "students" he is most likely a hero for "sticking it to the man" or some other left wing delusion.

Malcom J. - These are the same 'editors' who refused to run the Horowitz reparations ad (link via The Corner). Jonah Goldberg calls them on this BS / hypocrisy angle.

one more thing their first amendment bullshit does not hold water; someone on the net pointed out the many conservative columns they refused to publish. They just don't have the balls of stand up guys like Pat to say "yeah, we published it, so what?". They just try to slither out of responsibility; how do these asshats live with themselves?

Is he the same Rene Gonzalez as mentioned in the same newspaper in December 2003 saying how similar George Bush is to Hitler?

Rene Gonzalez of the University's Student Government Association's ALANA caucus ... compared the type of government in the United States to fascism. He also said that the little opposition of U.S. citizens to the policies of President George W. Bush is not dissimilar to the rise of Adolf Hitler in World War II. ...

We're probably paying this kid's tuition. The United States of of Suckers. What a fucking insult.

We're probably paying this kid's tuition. The United States of Suckers. What a fucking insult.

Yes he is, Rob. He's also the same Rene Gonzalez who describes Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice as "Zip Coons" in this Amazon review of a book about MLK.

Hmm his web page has a couple of Email addresses and asks if there is "Any way you can help?"

Yeah, I think there is a lesson or two the kid needs to learn.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

John Stuart Mill

Sounds VERY similar to the garbage that was posted on Indymedia following Tillman's death.

While you're at Amazon checking out the Zip Coons reference, don't forget to pick up a copy of Gonzalez' biography.

Sleepy,

Indymedia is one thing. A college newspaper is another. What gets me riled up is the "ownership" of the student editors of their jobs. When will one courageous Dean step up and give the kids a Donald Trump "You're fired!!!!"

Soemwhere along the line, assuming the role of editor for a college paper requires an acknowledgement of competence. And the Deans should be the final judges of what that means. Arbitrary? Sure. What we have is the University having responsibility without authority. And that has nothing to do with the 1st amendment.

At least this kid isn't pretending to support the troops. Wonder who he plans to vote for.

The outrage here is that any person like Gonzalez pretends to understand anything that Pat Tillman represents.

This native Bay Stater is also tired of having my tax dollars pay for these brats to major in 'The US Sucks', which is what they all seem to major in at UMASS.

I hope this guy returns to his neighborhood. Obviously, it has a lot more to offer him than the US does.

(We have called UMASS 'Zoo U' for as long as I can recall. It has more than earned it's name.)

Ay! Que lastima!

"He is currently the President of the AHORA organization..."

The poor schmuck is prez of the spanish version of "NOW"...

Dear Rene,

Enjoy the real world when you finally get to it, and learning that your professors did not, in fact, know everything, or indeed much of anything practical, and therefore, that you did not either.

I read once where Puerto Ricans, as a group, had won more medals for valor in the US military than virtually any other ethnic group.

Considering they've only been US citizens since the 1917 Hawley Act, that's very impressive.

I know one very tough PR Marine, married to my buddy's sister, who is serving in Iraq.

In other words, there are probably an awful lot of proud Puerto Rican veterans and service men (and women) who will no doubt avail themselves of an opportunity for 'a word' with Rene if he ever shows his buck-toothed face back in the neigborhood.

I thought Rene was a girl? Everyone on the Howie Carr show out in Boston thought he was a girl - directed all their comments at "her" or "she"

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jbcp/rene.html

oh well :)

Rene is a guy (theoretically)...Rantburg has a picture of him. Bob, can you give us some details of what was said on the Howie Carr show?

Well, I think this young man/woman's 'comments' are reprehensible rubbish. Arrogant, cruel, misinformed, dishonest bullshit.

That said, I don't think any college undergrad deserves the massive flak and threats of violence that are going to come his way.

In these days of the internet and blog sites, one dumb kid can be singled out when the real problem is the too-common unthinking support for his line of thinking on politics in general. By all means let this guy/girl get sacked from the paper but let's leave it at that. Free speech includes speech you don't like that deserves all the adjectives I used above. It's a waste of time creating a martyr.

May be too late to stop the flak, Kevin-- ESPN has picked up the story (Courtesy "Yosemite Sam" in Rantburg comment thread.)

He's not a little kid. He's a graduate student, which I guess makes him at least 22. Assuming he doesn't get off on the attention and accruing celebrity (in far left circles), I say heap as much contempt and scorn his way as possible. Tillman's dead. That twirp should experience a little discomfort.

He is a graduate student, not an undergrad. He *should* be old enough to know better. At any rate, people his age and younger are fighting and dying for this country.

While I think he shouldn't be exposed to threats of violence, I do believe that he should be flooded with non-violent flak. It is about time he (and others like him) find out that there are consequences to actions. I know universities don't teach responsibility and accountability, so this extracurricular learning will be good for him.

Tillman had cojones.

The correct taunt to the stupid author of this article is: Tu madre, mariposo...

(With apologies to Andrew Sullivan)

Tillman is getting exactly what every soldier has known they'd get for years.

He is being subjected to the envy of his moral inferiors, thinly disguised as contempt for his actions.

Tillman was a man of his convictions and one who acted on them, Rene is a gutless whiner (and knows it), studying courses that lead nowhere and sees Tillman, a man who had earned more than he ever will, give it all up to defend his country and made the ultimate sacrifice doing so.

Rene can't stand that and had to speak up, of course he's too spineless to have done it when Tillman might have responded.

Forget for a second that this student is completely wrong in all that he says, and is trying to insult the very person who would protect his right to say it.
Every single poli-sci, writing, and critical thinking professor at UMass at Amherst should cringe at the lack of critical thinking and poor example of writing that this GRADUATE student puts forth as a column.
What an idiot. What an unthinking, cliche-ridden piece of trash.
Hang your head in shame, UMass, if this is the type of student you are turning out in your graduate studies programs.

Tillman's death is awful, but the man chose his fate. Thousands of innocent Iraqis who do not have the luxury of choosing theirs continue to die at the hands of the American Army. What's despicable is that your dim-witted president has the audacity to justify not only his war but the ongoing occupation of Iraq by claiming that American forces are there fighting for ‘liberation’.

Tillman’s death was pointless - he died fighting for a self-appointed leviathan. The man was no martyr; rather, he’s as much a victim of Bush’s bullshit war rhetoric as the innocent Iraqi people.

Lovely speech Liz but you do know that practically none of it has anything to do with the reality? Which is, far from innocence, a nest of Baathist holdouts, torturers and petty criminals being flushed out; far from thousands, casualties are significantly lower than the everyday reality of Saddam's regime; and the only reason you're not in a burqa, sweetheart, is because of men like Pat Tillman.

This little punk isn't fit to carry Mr. Tillman's jockstrap.

Liz, Tillman died in Afghanistan.

Way to go, Liz. Just the kind of deep background knowledge I've come to expect from people of your ilk.

All soldiers sacrifice something. They give up part of their lives and family to serve. Their motivations range widely, but there is no doubt that they serve. The ultimate sacrifice is their life. Pat Tillman, like our other casualties, made that sacrifice. I would not demean the death of any one who dies in military service. This includes publishing pictures of flag drapped coffins, reading names at $56 each, or posting insulting and demeaning rants behind the aprons of any newspaper.

The most slovenly soldier in the military is lightyears beyond that contemputous left wing whiner, Rene.

And since you don't know the difference between Iraq and Afghanistan, it looks like you are pointless yourself, Liz, and full of rhetoric. I think that you are from UMASS yourself, and share courses with the center of this thread, Rene. The academic substandards are quite apparent.

Going off topic a little, but I find the coverage around Tillman's death disproportionate compared to coverage about other soldier's deaths (and that includes coverage by the "anti-war militants").

He gave up a large salary as well as his life, while others gave up a small salary as well as their lives. Giving up salary doesn't mean much compared to giving up one's life, IMO, so the sacrifices are essentially the same.

Turn off the tv, then.

I find in this guy's comments something of the boiler-plate anti-male rhetoric common among "feminized males" in academe. There is, generally unknown outside of universities, a sort of alliance between feminists and anti-male men who join together to trash various "masculine" qualities which Tillman typified. Underneath it all is a barely concealed envy driven by an intolerable sense of one's own comparative inferiority. Such malevolence is not merely ideologically-driven--unless of course one wants to say that liberalism's hate rhetoric orgy these days is always already an expression of self-loathing.

Liz, 'thousands of innocent Iraqis' are not 'continuing' - or even commencing - to die at the hands of the 'American Army'.

On the contrary, Iraqis are noticing a markedly better life.

Believe what you want Liz. It won't change reality.

As you say, Liz, Tillman's death is awful. But you are wrong in saying he 'chose his fate'. He chose to put his life on the line believing he was doing so for a better world. Fate chose him.

Thank god for people whose actions in dangerous places speak louder than those whose words emanate from the safety of universities.

S.A. Smith, if you read Liz's post I think you'll find that she makes no reference to where Tillman died.

Mike G, people like Tillman make war possible. Blind following of your illustrious leader, put him in the grave. I suspect there will be many more deaths to come before USA pulls out of Iraq, tail-between-legs Vietnam style. The only thing this ‘war on terror’ is doing is exacerbating hate for USA. Your president is putting all of your lives at risk and has you paying for the pleasure. What’s more, you’re all myopic enough to drink his rhetoric up.

There was no imminent threat to USA from Saddam. What we’re talking about is a bloody murderous regime change. It was essentially based on punishment for past crimes but sold as a pre-emptive strike.

There is no question that Saddam was a barbaric dictator and should have been brought to justice. However, it is unacceptable to lie to the world and unleash a war, which by reasonable conservative present estimates, has killed somewhere between 8,000 to 10,000 civilians in order to bring one tyrant and his closest henchmen, to justice.

We wouldn't do that if these were Australian or American civilians. If someone were hiding out in a suburb of Sydney we would not drop bombs on a restaurant where they might be. Yet the Americans dropped bombs on a restaurant in Baghdad in an attempt to kill Saddam and his sons. Why? Because we would have too much respect for the lives of Australian civilians who would be killed when doing that.

But America does not have that respect for the lives of Iraqi civilians, and as time wears on, we’re seeing proof of that (the photographs of Iraqi prisoners made to pose nude in sexually suggestive positions with US soldiers smiling and pointing is just one repulsive example).

USA makes up less than 5% of the world’s population yet its government assumes absolute power. This is not democratic and it's not in keeping with the founding ideals of the fathers of the United States. It's also contrary to their view that you need to have checks and balances to power, and that absolute power is likely to corrupt.

The majority of the world’s population isn’t white, they don’t live in the west and they’re increasingly baying for USA blood. Something tells me that they aren’t going to stop until they’ve had their fill of it.

Thing is, had USA not appointed itself as the 'global police', and instead backed and empowered the UN, we may not be in this mess. It’s pure Sophoclean tragedy – you brought it on yourselves.

See the photos for yourself

Would that be the same UN that siphoned all the Oil for Food money away?

Oh wait, UN = doubleplusgood, can do no wrong.

Of course, Tillman died in Afghanistan on a UN-sanctioned mission.

Little oversight there, eh?

Thing is, had USA not appointed itself as the 'global police', and instead backed and empowered the UN, we may not be in this mess.

"Empowered the UN," Shoshannah? To do what-- leave Saddaam in power while enriching themselves and him through the "Oil-for-Food" scam? Sheesh. You want to leave Saddaam rich and in power, brutalizing innocent Iraqis to avoid a few Western deaths, fine. Just stop calling us the racist ones.

The majority of the world’s population isn’t white, they don’t live in the west and they’re increasingly baying for USA blood. Something tells me that they aren’t going to stop until they’ve had their fill of it.

Shoshannah, don't you have anything to say about that violence? You're raising a big moral stink about Americans targeting Iraqi civilians, but not a peep about this supposed majority trying to kill as many Americans as possible. That's not even moral equivalence anymore, it's disequivalence. An American life is not only equal to an Iraqi life for you, it's actually worth LESS.

Thing is, had USA not appointed itself as the 'global police'...

Well, who else does the world cry out to when things are going wrong? Peru? Micronesia?

...and instead backed and empowered the UN...

The same UN that embezzled billions of dollars from the Iraqis through their corrupt schemes. What assurances do we have that "empowering" the UN a second time won't lead to the same kind of massive fraud and suffering? And before you say it, Kofi Annan's solemn promises to never do it again won't cut it.

Wow, is that all? Looks like we've been amiss in teaching our armed forces the finer points of Torture 101. This looks more like frat-party frosh-hazing stunts. Then again, maybe the photos of Americans feeding prisoners into plastic shredders, raping the prisoners' wives and daughters, and then feeding them to dogs are still being developed.

Apparently John Thacker and Posse and I all posted at the same time. Apologies for repeating the other two guys.

I refer, of course, to the "shocking" photos of supposed "torture" performed upon Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers. (The investigation still seems to be ongoing, though this means nothing to Our Betters like Shoshanna -- the countries her ilk prefer we emulate don't have silly practices like "innocent until proven guilty" etc.)

Shoshannah, you have revealed yourself to be such a simple child that I almost hesitate to start with you out of pity, but

a) you prefer we back the same UN whose responsible for the "Oil-for-Palaces" scandal, enriching many, including UN representatives, all the while leaving Saddam to continue torturing and murdering his citizens in the *tens of thousands*. Not to mention the UN's sordid record in Rwanda, the Palestinian "refugee camps", Kosovo, etc etc.

b) Your ignorant babbling about "absolute power" of the US government reveals you are woefully uneducated about the basics of the US democratic system. And, I am guessing you are generally unintelligent, so I suppose you never will become educated about the subject.

And the rest of your race-baiting post suggests you would gladly help any maniac get the blood from the US which they are "baying for", if you only could, you sick and twisted bitch.

O' fock it.

Carl, thank you. Because that's precisely what I meant to say.

One of the saddest things about Ranger Tillman's death, and the death of so many brave men and women, is that it's gonna take another horrific attack by our enemy to wake some more people up "in the middle" who aren't already rabid Bush-haters.

Those of you on the left are already lost to your delerium, thinking this conflict has all to do with material resources or national influence. Go read the actual writings of our common enemy and then come back here to argue it's about oil, or military presence. Bush could call for all of us to convert tomorrow and it wouldn't make a damned bit of difference. We're all targets, and all the nuance in the world won't make you otherwise.

Get on board or get outta the way.

Shoshannah, where have you been for the past 225 years??

--The majority of the world’s population isn’t white, they don’t live in the west and they’re increasingly baying for USA blood. Something tells me that they aren’t going to stop until they’ve had their fill of it.--

You really don't understand, do you?

I hope women like "Rene",Liz and Shoshanah will get out of their comfortable chairs long enough to realize how much they are able to voice themselves only because many men like Pat Tillman and many women in the military is willing to put their lives on the line amd fight for their rights.
Pity they can't see it but it must be far easier to live with blinders strap across their eyes.
These idealogical kids reminds me of dogs who were housed in 4X4 kennels all their lives and cannot comprehend life beyond that point.

Save your breath, Sandy, you're talking to the "other" 40%. The color of the sky in their world is always gruesome gray when a Republican sits in the White House, and a pastel blue when a Democrat's getting sucked off under the Oval Office desk.

Take solace in the fact their world's fixin' to get a might uglier come 3 Nov 04.

What is with the Conspiracy Planet article repeatedly referring to Gonzalez as Rodriguez? One example:

Tillman "shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull." wrote Rodriguez.

Were there two authors? A second article? What am I missing here?

Duh!
"many men like Pat Tillman and many women in the military -is- willing to put their lives on the line"

ARE,not is...Now Fly must repeat 1,000 times "must read,edit and correct"

"USA (sic) makes up less than 5% of the world’s population yet its government assumes absolute power."

Cool! France shall kneel before us! Germany shall bow to us also! Kneel before Zod!

Carl in N.H., nicely said!

And as per Tim's update, Rene is already changing his position:

Gonzalez said in an e-mail to a Boston TV station that he was trying to say Tillman's celebrity had factored into his being labeled a hero.

He admits he tried to prove his point in an "insensitive way" and that the article wasn't worth publishing.

WOW! He is even flip flopping like John Kerry. Yes indeed, this guy is being groomed for a seat in the US Senate.

Problem is, Rene can't do it from Puerto Rico. As a territory, it doesn't have full state status, and no representation in the Senate. He either goes for the House of Representatives, or he changes his legal residence, a la' Hillary Clinton.

Perhaps he'll move to Arizona......

Ah, the voice of youth... thank God there wasn't a net around when some of us was spoutin' off way back when...

This Gonzalez kid may or may not rue the day he hit "send,", but what a cautionary tale it may prove to be for some others out there tonite.

If I had a dollar for every arsehole (especially in the military) who emailed something they'd like to take back, I could stay retired and watch "TV Land" all day! "The Munsters" still rules.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I don't see any campaign of his getting off the ground. (Incidentally, I pity any guys out there named Rene Gonzalez who *aren't* this schlemiel - neither of those names are rare). The difference between what Kerry did and what this guy did is that mass communication now is instantaneous. Kerry's antics would mostly have been recorded in paper newspapers, in articles that not everyone would read, and which not everyone in the country had access to.

Rene's exploits have gone around the world in twenty-four hours, and the Google cache feature is an unforgiving mistress. I think it's safe bet that for the next twenty years, at least, any search on this guy will turn up, for its first several pages, a LOT of links and replications of the original, non-retracted article. A shame, really, considering that he could change and mature and not really be the same person he was when he wrote - ah, forget it. It's not a shame at all. It's frellin' hilarious. I'm just sorry it didn't happen to one of the loons at my own college. That, as Tevye says, would be the sweetest gift of all.

That's the best part of the net: we've ALL become reporters/editors/publishers. In an instant, we can all weigh in on some schtoopid fargin' icehole who spouts some incredibly stupid shit, with quotes, urls, and the whole schmear... and it STICKS!

The problem only comes with people who either aren't willing to stick with what they've said in the past, or can't legitmately explain it away with Clinton-esque finesse.

No one loses -- everybody wins! Hurrah for the net, and hurrah for everyone who doesn't have the room to store a fucking ton of past issues of Time, Newsweek, The Economist, et cetera ad nauseum ad infinitum...

did you see his major - African-American Music & Jazz Studies. Confirms my belief about any uni courses ending with "Studies".

"which by reasonable conservative present estimates, has killed somewhere between 8,000 to 10,000 civilians in order to bring one tyrant and his closest henchmen, to justice."

Reasonable? Just name the Saddam propaganda out... erm, I mean Peace outfit who produced em instead.

"If someone were hiding out in a suburb of Sydney we would not drop bombs on a restaurant where they might be."

This is because there is something called "The Australian Police". They maintain armed control of Australia. If they should start to lose control, to external invasion, or internal rebellion, the military gets called in. And yes, that would mean bombed resturants, among other things.

"which by reasonable conservative present estimates, has killed somewhere between 8,000 to 10,000 civilians in order to bring one tyrant and his closest henchmen, to justice."

Bob Cotgrove from the University of Tasmania has pointed out that the poverty Saddam enforced on his nation created a massive death toll - in the late 1990s, 66,900 more people died a year in Iraq than would have been the case had the death rate been the same as in neighbouring nations. Of this number, 41,300 were children.

So on the basis of "reasonable conservative" estimates, the coalition is responsible, to date, for around 50,000 extra Iraqis surviving. Damn Bush, damn him to hell.

To All of the People in the World Outside of America:

If my country ever comes under the control of a sadistic tyrant and his cronies who murder, rape, torture and imprison hundreds of thousands of my fellow countrymen, I hereby grant you full leave and permission to drop a bomb on any restaurant he is dining in, even if I am in it.

If you decide you want to hang around for a few years and rebuild anything you may have damaged while you were at it, please feel free. I'll supply the beer.

Sincerely,
Dave

Dave S.

Perfect. I'll get the next round.

Renee tu eres un maricon

God's Bodkin, I am greatly Amazed at ye Contribution of Porto-Ricans to the Arte, Thought, & Commerce of ye American PLanations -- first, Jennifer Lo Pez, & now this Fair Maide. She (Maide Rene) be ye Honorary Marshalle of the Porto-Rican Pryde Parade, ye Porto-Ricans have So Mucche contributions to Arte, Thoughte & ye Commerce to Celebrate.

Though, the Haire on this MaideRene is Mickle Odde.

How is Dave S going to supply the beer when he is in little fragments sprayed all over the remains of a restaurant? What a clod. Nice to see he thinks things through - not.
I suppose he fully supports mass murderers by proxy like that miserable little coward George Dubya Bush.
Liz is right. S A Smith is wrong and needs to get a grip on the facts. If he can.

DaveS Wrote: "If my country ever comes under the control of a sadistic tyrant and his cronies who murder, rape, torture and imprison hundreds of thousands of my fellow countrymen, I hereby grant you full leave and permission to drop a bomb on any restaurant he is dining in, even if I am in it."

It's a deal Dave.

Shoshannah have you looked at those pics?

I can tell you right now they are fake. Do you want to know how I can tell you this?

See that fellow with his thumb up? Look at his hair. That is not military regulation. In fact. in situations were you will not be able to shower regularly, like say a war zone, it is even shorter than normal. Why? Lice and other things.

See the dude with the Mustache. My brother is in the Navy Reserves and is not allowed to have a mustache that touches his lip.

So what you see here is a some people who have fooled you into thinking that those pictures are authentic.

You sir have been made a fool of.

Look at those pictures, than look at any AP photos of soldiers in Iraq. Find one AP pic with a soldier with either hair that long, IE touching their ears, or a mustache touching their lips.

Then post that pic. Then we can talk. Until then, please do not post stupidity such as this.

James Stephenson
ex-Army 1986-1989

1. What's scary is, as a grad student at a big university he's probably teaching undergrads.

2. Tim, you hit on why I support allowing people to burn the flag (preferably on camera) - anything that lets guys like this imprint the scarlet letter on themselves before they get into elective office is A Good Thing.

(When I worked on a Senate campaign against Kerry 12 years ago when I was in college, there were rumors that somebody had video of Kerry from the early 70s burning a flag - I realize now that Kerry was never as far gone as all that, but if he had been, it would have been political death for him even in Massachusetts).

And Conspiracy Planet believes Rene is the victim of PC thugs:

"I've been called a 'greasy thug' too. And it never stops hurting."
- Homer Simpson

This guy is not only idiot, he's an idiot who writes terrible, awkward prose.

idiot...oops.

Mr. Deevo, with all due respect, what the hell are you talking about? (And, yes, I am dumb so you'll need to explain it to me)

James S.,
Take another look. That is a woman. I recognize the mamalian protruberances. :)
If the photos aren't faked somebody is going to jail.

This is the first time I've ever read this forum before, but I think a reading of this particular thread--extensive and passionate as it is--is sufficient enough to warrant some comments. Before going any further, I want to explain my willingness to comment comes from a firm and long-standing respect for public and civic deliberation. Although sites on the internet, b/c of their fluidity and ability to foster the formation of very like-minded communities, naturally create a more casual atmosphere, in regards to standards of reason and norms of debate, I hardly think that the name-calling that has occurred here today is ever excusable in a forum; it's even more so in a forum where some people are expressing concerns for democracy. By calling attention to this problem, I don't want to criticize people for criticism's sake. Instead I want to inject a sense of self-awareness into the discussion, by calling-out wrongs and injustices where I observe it. In the end, the only way democracy will work in Iraq, or the US, is when regular people take notice of public conversations and stand up and praise words spoken properly and condemn the ones that have no place. Certainly—and rightly!—the first amendment guarantees us the right to say what we will and censorship is wrong, but that doesn't stop ordinary citizens from saying when people are speaking wrongly by engaging in acts of censuring.

Shoshanna, you were wrong to accuse the other members of the forum for being myopic, and were wrong for lumping everyone into that same category. Discussion requires respect for other speakers and the assumption on everyone's part that the people in the forum are those who have goodwill and an open-mind.

Carl, you were wrong to call Shoshanna stupid, worthy of pity, and a bitch. Your conclusion was a form of violence, at least within the confines of civic deliberation, and possibly outside of the realm of deliberation. Perhaps a good norm of debate might involve refraining oneself from speaking with your opponent in way that your mother would slap you for if she heard you.

I've said my piece, and hope that some peace might come of it.

Oops, shame on me, I made a mistake. Carl, you didn't call Shoshanna stupid, you called her a simple child. I apologize for mis-quoting you; that hardly furthers and fosters debate!

Kevin,

Yes, Rene is an outrageous scumbag in need of a sock party, but Puerto Rico is not a "cesspool of an island". Why even go there?

I would like to be the first to tell Tim that he can go fuck himself.

That would be Tim the recent poster and not Tim the host. Sorry for any confusion.

Respect for Pat Tillman.

So, I hear a lot of people talking about Rene's foolishness being based in his 'immaturity' and general inability to comprehend 'the real world.' I'll buy it... But I am a little curious as to how you people would chose to define these concepts of 'maturity' and 'the real world'. I'm not sure myself - that's why I'm asking.

My own opinion is that this Rene guy suffers from an extreme case of 'being a damnfool.'

Geez, I go away for a day, and some school marm named "Tim" comes flouncing in and upbraids us.

So, I guess this means no milk and cookies for me, huh ?

"Tim", when done fucking yourself as Willis helpfully suggested, I would like you to go back to the Bible class you came in from, and tell them all that I said you are a simple and stupid wanker.

Thank you !

Willis and Carl, contrary to your suggestions that I leave this forum, I have decided to remain. I don't take your responses to be reflective of the entire community and hope that you two don't regularly greet newcomers with obscenity and a spirit of exclusion. And though my first comment as a visitor could have been more politic if I had used it in way that didn't come across as pedantic and school marm-ish, I still think it was defensible. I think that democracy occurs whenever regular citizens come together to talk about issues of public concern. In as much as the debate today dealt with matters of war and peace and the appropriate ways of talking about war and peace in the media and on message boards, I think that it is appropriate—and even obligatory—on the part of people involved to speak-up and say that there are better ways to talk. I think it's okay even if they are new to the debate. In our meeting halls and forums, we don't allow ourselves to shoo anyone away, nor would we want to; why should this conversation try to do so? To do so would seem jarringly undemocratic, and if people who both actively pay attention to issues and talk about them with others cannot be convinced of the need to do so civilly and with a humble mind, how can our system work? But, I am an optimist and hope that we can enact genuine debate. After all, if we start doing it, it will be done.

O tempora! O mores! eh, Tim? I'm with you brother.

Earlier Rob posted this:

"Rene Gonzalez of the University's Student Government Association's ALANA caucus ... compared the type of government in the United States to fascism. He also said that the little opposition of U.S. citizens to the policies of President George W. Bush is not dissimilar to the rise of Adolf Hitler in World War II. ..."

The rise of Adolf Hitler in War II? Silly old me thought Adolf came to power in 1933 - some years before WW2. Mr Gonzalez seems to have neglected his historical studies along the line somewhere...

Tim, I am watering down this post in the hopes that you will accept this in good faith: Discourse is rowdy. If you find the internet to be impolite, find the cord that runs to your modem and yank on it really hard. The rest of us will continue our spirited discussions, and frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way.

If you have anything else to add to the discussion beyond playing nannygoat, feel free to make it. Otherwise, we'll probably ignore you or make fun of you. Speaking politely and lifting our pinkies while we sip tea will not advance democracy anywhere, and I'm a leeeeetle suspicious of you that you would wrap your scolding in that kind of language. If you're sincere, shame on you for comparing the goal of democracy in Iraq with how we speak here.

There are lots of stupid things said around here by people on both sides of either issue, so you're going to need to seriously up your flame threshold if you actually want to participate. If all you really want to do is attack the points presented in this thread based on the tone they are presented in rather than on their own merit, then you're not much better than someone who pads their posts with cheap shots and poorly spelled curse words.

As for Shoshannah, who is disgusting and foolish and will not get a pass on it from me: Consider that if a man like Saddam was butchering and oppressing American or Australian civilians as you said, we would be commiting a grave injustice against our own people if we did not immediately make war on him without restraint. That you don't get that speaks volumes about you, even as you offer up the silly platitude that Saddam was a "bad man who needed to be brought to justice". Although modern pacifists are lucky enough to have somehow avoided this lesson all through life, justice is only dispensed by force. So long as men like Saddam can count on people like Shoshannah to blindly restrain that force, war and terror will be sadly inevitable. Unless the Teletubbies have an International Peace Keeping squad that brings despots to justice by rubbing their bellies, that is. Then we wouldn't have to take any military action ever.

Tim,

Polite debate is all fine and dandy. However, there are times that call for stronger language. A good example of one of those times is when addressing some prick who calls a fallen war hero an "idiot" ( or asshole depending on interpretation). Another time is when addressing the jerks who would defend the prick without first condemning his extremely offensive comments. I do not put you in either of these categories.

Sortelli, although I disagree with you on your willingness to draw such a sharp distinction between *what* is being said and *how* it is being said, I take your point that contribution to the subject matter is important seriously. Engaging in public deliberation naturally involves concern for public matters.

That said, I thought that this article in today's Washington Post might be useful for the discussion regarding Shoshanna's claims regarding the pictures of US soldiers allegedly harassing Iraqi prisoners: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57849-2004Apr30.html. This article adds credibility to her claims that not everything is being run smoothly in Iraq. Certainly, it's a war zone, and the fog of war probably should be seen on more than the battle field. But, it seems equally true that wrong behavior, such as this, is not excusable and demands investigation and appropriate action on the part of US officials. Even though Hussein undoubtedly did far worse things to far more many people, Caesar's wife must be beyond criticism. By rebuking these wrongs, we can both underscore the constant threat of evil that exists within humankind and our ability to make attempts at diminishing or checking it.

The wrongs have been rebuked, Tim. Repeatedly. And as a matter of fact, these wrongs happened late last year, and the officers involved are going to be court martialed. I wonder why the media only released the pictures now? (cough May sweeps cough)

But that won't stop the people who Can't Believe It's Not Vietnam!™ from wetting themselves with delight at the thought of these photos making the rounds of the delicate and refined Arab world.

Ok, just some thoughts.

Rene Gonzalez is an asshole and a jerk.

Please stop telling him to go back to PR because PR is part of the US, just in case you didn't knew that.

There are thousands of soldiers from PR in the war, in fact those are the first they always send.

I can reassure you that at least 98% of the people in PR are appalled and outrage at his comments. Cause we're proud to be American.

In my neighborhood, he's not welcomed at all.

Ok let's send him to Irag to see if he likes it.

Here's the jerk e-mail address so why don't we drop him a note:

rene@student.umass.edu

I'm most impressed by Rene's sympathy and understanding. As a good little leftist, he must feel the pain of Ranger Tillman's family. . . . or maybe not. What hypocracy! (Why am I not surprised).

Rene needs to understand that there are consequences to actions. If he wants to play in the adult world, he needs to take the consequences like a man. He should be heaped with scorn until he is reduced to tears -- and then we should really criticize him.

This a-hole doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as a great hero like Cpl. Tillman.

Dear Rene: Please go back to Puerto Rico. Your intellect is more suited to pick-pocketing tourists back home than it is to being a PhD student in political science. I would also really prefer it if you Puerto Ricans would be content to export your wonderful rum and tropical fruit, and spare us your primitive little ideas.

Rene is a fucking liberal coward.

I'm enjoying reading these posts. Just for the record let me add that Rene is, in fact, an ignorant ass. he does however, posess lovely 5th grade writing skills. I guess the composition standards at UMass are a little low.

First of all let me state that I am against the US being involved in Iraq, and to a smaller extent Afghanistan. I also dont believe the war is so much about stopping a tyrant than about oil.

That being said I would like to put a size 12 Corcoran upside Rene's head.

I dont care if you agree with the war or not. If you are so small minded and egocentrically fundamentalist that you cannot at least give respect to the memory of a dead solider, much less respect the fact that Tillman showed more conviction and patriotism in his actions than most of us will ever have, then you are a no-load piece of garbage. Whether or not you feel his patriotism was "Stupid" or misguided is still irrelevant.

So is argument, "well so what, HE didnt die so i could write what I want in the here and now" - Wake up hateful children; when you spit on Tillman's memory or the memory of ANY soldier that gave his life fighting, you spit on the memory of ALL soldiers, their function, and what they have done.

I guarantee not a single one of the vitriolic morons here talking about Pat Tillman in a nasty manner, has a parent or grandparent that would not be ashamed to hear those words coming from their mouths in regards to a dead serviceman.