September 09, 2003
STOP THE SINGING
The nightmare continues for Andrew Gumbel, a civilised, cultured writer for The Independent forced to live in an American hellhole:
Sooner or later, anyone who lives abroad reaches a defining moment when the desire to understand and fit into the foreign culture hits a brick wall of absolute resistance. In my case, living in California, it came a few weeks ago at my son's elementary school open house. The first-grade classroom was transformed into a showcase of art projects, spelling bees and mini-science workshops on the life cycle of insects. So far, so good. But then the children of Room 63 started to sing, and my internal refusal mechanism went haywire. In unison, they launched into "America I Love You".
This grotesque assault on Gumbel’s refined sensibilities provokes a million-word screed able to be reduced to these essential lines:
Ignorance, self-delusion, free-floating disregard for the facts and an unswerving belief in its own infallibility: such are the hallmarks of today's America.
Write a song about it, Gumby: “America I Hate You”.
Posted by Tim Blair at September 9, 2003 05:41 PMGumbel, relief is but a plane ticket away. A one-way plane ticket.
Posted by: Perfectsense at September 9, 2003 at 05:45 PMHe probably thought he'd be among friends in California.
Posted by: ilibcc at September 9, 2003 at 06:10 PMMy letter to the Independant:
"Ignorance, self-delusion, free-floating disregard for the facts and an
unswerving belief in its own infallibility," writes Andrew Guble of the
Californian hell-hole in which he lives. He may well have been writing about
himself and his friends, all in ideological lock-step with their
hate-America chant.
Never mind Andrew, you can always move to North Korea.
"Gumbel, relief is but a plane ticket away."
Relief for us.
Posted by: Mike D. at September 9, 2003 at 06:53 PMGee, nice way to slam the kids. I hope none of them -- they must have rehearsed for days, thinking they'd charm the parents -- read his drivel.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at September 9, 2003 at 09:51 PMShoulda just took his cellphone to the gents and had a chat to his brother Barney while this horrible display of atavistic tribalism was on display.
Or else tried to mentally picture how he would have reacted had they been European kids singing "Europe, How We Love You".
Posted by: Uncle Milk at September 9, 2003 at 10:35 PM"america, i love you"? i don't know that one
Posted by: Mr. Bingley at September 9, 2003 at 11:19 PMMany years ago, not long after moving to Australia, my Aussie brother-in-law took me to a USA v. Australia night at Claremont Speedway in Perth. When the Star Spangle Banner began to play on the PA system I rose to sing. My brother-in-law, who had remained sitting, gently tugged at my shirt to subtly tell me to sit down. I'm embarrassed to say I succumbed to the pressure. Never again.
Posted by: ZsaZsa at September 10, 2003 at 12:00 AMBeat me to it, Mr. Bingley. I live (not to be too specific) extremely close to the population center of the United States, amidst the Midwestern aboriginals grunting their patriotic chants day and night, and haven't run across this particular paeon (sp) to Amerikkka's greatness.
Mr. Gumbel's clumsy attempt at anthropological writing exhibits his own transnazi pomo parochialism. Perhaps Frawnce would be more to his liking.
Posted by: Tongue Boy at September 10, 2003 at 12:11 AMWait until after the Recall election.
I cannot wait to see the likes of Gumbel and the other "liberal minded" Santa Monicans ...
driven before Governor Arnie ...
and to hear the lamentation of the Soccer-Moms !!!
Posted by: The_GOP_Elephant at September 10, 2003 at 12:12 AMI agree with Mr Bingley. I have never heard of the song "America, I Love You" either. I'm not claiming that Andrew Gumbel "sexed" up the article, but until someone can verify that there is actually a song "America, I Love You"... what am I supposed to think?
I've heard of the songs "America the Beautiful", "Battle Hymn of the Republic", and "Stars and Stripes Forever". But no "America, I Love You". Maybe the kids were singing the Dean Martin song "That's Amore".
Posted by: Charles at September 10, 2003 at 12:32 AMAmerica, I Love You
Lyric by Edgar Leslie & Music by Archie Gottlier
Amid fields of clover,
T'was just a little over
A hundred years ago,
A handful of strangers,
They faced many dangers,
To make their country grow.
It's now quite a nation
Of wond'rous population,
And free from ev'ry king!
It's your land, it's my land,
A great do or die land,
And that's just why I sing:
America, I love you!
You're like a sweetheart of mine!
From ocean to ocean,
For you my devotion,
Is touching each bound'ry line.
Just like a little baby
Climbing it's mother's knee,
America, I love you!
And there's a hundred million others like me!
From all sorts of places,
They welcomed all the races
To settle on their shore.
They didn't care which one,
The poor or the rich one,
They still had room for more.
To give them protection
By popular election,
a set of laws they chose.
They're your laws and my laws,
For your cause and my cause.
That's why this country rose.
America, I love you!
You're like a sweetheart of mine!
From ocean to ocean,
For you my devotion,
Is touching each bound'ry line.
Just like a little baby
Climbing it's mother's knee,
America, I love you!
And there's a hundred million others like me!
Much better to go the way of the UK, where flaunting the Union Jack is linked with the fascist British Nationalist Party and British-born citizens regularly end up in Afghanistan.
Posted by: chip at September 10, 2003 at 01:04 AMI have never heard of the song either.
The lyrics seem like they were written for Barney the Purple dinosaur.
Posted by: A E Hansen at September 10, 2003 at 01:05 AMIn the midst of the usual "America needs to learn to loathe itself" pablum Gumbel did stumble across one good point: the politically correct, sanitized-for-your-protection textbooks being used today are crap. These "bias review" committees need to be driven out of business - with a baseball bat if necessary.
Posted by: Randal Robinson at September 10, 2003 at 01:12 AMThat song is a little over done. Actually, it is goofy especially the part about the baby climbing on its mothers knee.
Gumbel could always take the high road and home school.
I loved the little story in his rant about the Grand Old Flag and how the father "gently" pointed out to his child that the whole song was a "boast AND a brag"...and the child actually pondered this! My 5 year old would say, "mommy, I thought the words were a roast and a rag".
Kids have been singing these songs in school for a long time and we still don't see a big American-Nazi party movement. They are harmless.
Posted by: Kelly at September 10, 2003 at 02:01 AMThanks, Altogether Now.
Sort of a cross between Irving Berlin and School House Rock.
Posted by: Tongue Boy at September 10, 2003 at 02:05 AM--Amid fields of clover,
T'was just a little over
A hundred years ago,
A handful of strangers,
They faced many dangers,
To make their country grow. --
READ THE WORDS - It sounds like it was written around our centennial, 1876.
Gumbel is right on the money here. I fondly remember my very first brainwashing session in school. We were forced to pledge allegiance to a flag, and sing songs about how terrific our country was. Interestingly, it worked! I actually do love my country, and can't wait for the real imperialism to start, wherein we dwarf the aspirations of Rome, Soviet Russia, or Imperial Japan, and just start kicking everyone's asses. Starting with California.
I'm sure Gumbel would have preferred isolationism in the early 1940's.
Posted by: Rob at September 10, 2003 at 02:13 AMYes, an archaic artifact from a racist, sexist, homophobic, geneocidal era in Amerikkkan history. A thorough deconstruction would undoubtedly reveal white male power themes nestled gently in a bed of childishly militaristic and patriotic lyrics.
Posted by: Tongue Boy at September 10, 2003 at 02:19 AMSo Gumbel believes the rest of the world's six year-olds are getting post-modernist deconstructions of their societies' failings and shortcomings as part of their educaations? Surely those North Korean first graders are getting a nuanced education about their country's place in the world! And those Palestinian youngsters really know the ambiguities of their ethnic isolation. Of course there's no better preparation for understanding the world outside one's own country than a few years in a Madrassa.
What's shocking about Gumbel's piece is his bizarre expectations of primary education, and his conspiratorial view of America's experience with it. If we started geographic education at 8 instead of 9, would that make the world a better place?
Having said that, he does have a good point about the left's push to control language in this country, and the right's hope to restrict topics of discussion. It's a vast oversimplification of course, but it's at least worth discussing. And the public school systems in this country (and probably most other countries) is subject to a brutal, nit-picking ideological tug of war when it comes to determining curriculum. But the alternative to that tug-of-war is a one-sided indoctrination determined by "professional educators."
I get the feeling though that that's something of which Gumbel would probably approve.
Posted by: John Pearley Huffman at September 10, 2003 at 03:53 AMI don't understand this guy's problem. Don't kids in the UK and Europe sing songs about their country in school?
Posted by: PatrickM at September 10, 2003 at 03:53 AMHas Gumbel, in his entire life, ever sung God Save the Queen?
C Diddy
Posted by: Chris at September 10, 2003 at 04:12 AMWow, there is a song. I don't see why people are upset about kids singing it in school though. There isn't one reference to God.
Posted by: Charles at September 10, 2003 at 04:14 AMI find his claim that Hussein Ibish had to explain 'Orientalism' to him dubious. Isn't Said required reading at University?
"Americans, he said, have been so ground down by decades of negative imagery from films and television depicting Middle Easterners as religious extremists and terrorists that they are simply unable to make distinctions."
Those films and TV shows are known as "documentaries".
Of course, this sort of commentary is not unknown:
"Men admired as profound philosophers gravely asserted that all animals, and with them the human species, degenerate in America -- that even dogs cease to bark after having breathed awhile in our atmosphere." - Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers
Well, the Brit's got one thing right: public school is a crappy, socialist institution.
Though I guess he forgot about the quality of public schools in britain when he penned this screech...I mean screed.
Posted by: Aaron G. at September 10, 2003 at 04:36 AMTim, don't you wish your blog's readers were smart enough to actually read and understand an article you link to? Probably not.
In any case, the responses to this article tend to do nothing more than prove the author's point. Americans DO tend to put blind nationalism ahead of the truth.
Posted by: RJ at September 10, 2003 at 04:43 AMAnd consider that the People's Republic of Santa Monica is one of the most liberal cities in California. Gumbel should be happy he's not posted to Orange County, where the school songs are more likely to be "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and "God Bless America."
Regarding igorance, didn't a recent poll show that 10% of Britons couldn't name their prime minister? Let alone find Botswana on a map.
Nice troll RJ. BTW what truth would that be that falls before our blind nationalism, the preprocessed pabulum promulageted by the Beeb or ABC?
Posted by: Alex at September 10, 2003 at 04:59 AMIn response to RJ
Snide comments are never a substitute for informed discourse.
Gumbel is correct that we are taught to love our country. Call it indoctrination, nationalism, whatever. But there is a reason so many are willing to profess love for this country. We are free, we are (as a country) prosperous, and we enjoy social and economic opportunities unmatched in any other country. Ask yourself why many of the best and brightest in the world come to make America their home. No, our social services may not be the equal of other countries, but that is part of the American ethos of self-reliance and distrust of government. We think we can do a better job of providing for ourselves than the government.
Gumbel is correct that our educational system is woefully parochial in nature. We are focused on learning our history, governmental structures and processes because this is the environment in which most of us will spend our working careers. Quite frankly, the Treaty of Masstricht has little relevance in the US when compared with the socio-economic impact of NAFTA.
We reward winners in America. Plain and simple. Whiners, such as Mr. Gumbel and yourself are but a minor distraction. TO Gumbel - Get the hell out of the way, we have things to do.
Posted by: sleeper at September 10, 2003 at 05:16 AMWhy is it only "super educated" Americans are the one who agree w/ his views?
I know the difference between Slovenia & Slovakia, so I guess that makes me "super educated." Certainly my Intellectual Status contributes more credibility to the assertion that Gumbel is a pretentious ass.
No more than 10 minutes after reading the article, I come across this w/ an opposite thesis.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/09/schools.democracy.ap/index.html
Posted by: Wes at September 10, 2003 at 05:19 AMI thought about writing a long and detailed fisking of gumbel's piece, and then I realized that it would be futile. After all, to disgagree with him would, in his mind, validate his thesis - that I must be ignorant, self-deluded and indoctrinated into the love-America cult.
The thing is, Gumbel thinks that because he, well, he hates America. His piece is dripping with hatred toward America.
Posted by: Bill at September 10, 2003 at 05:25 AMAlex - labeling someone who disagrees with you a troll is a sign of blind nationalism.
Sleeper - some of us perfer a more adult love for our country. That is one that is loyal to it yet actually loves it enough to correct it when it's wrong, and try to make it better. Posters here seem to advocate something that is more like puppy love, blind devotion that has no time for reason or debate.
We love to call this the greatest country on earth, yet less than 50% of us even bother to vote and only 20% can be bothered to read a newspaper. And we aren't the least bit embarrassed by being the largest industrial nation with 40 million people without healthcare. Nor are some of us seeminly embarrassed by a president who tells the world to go to hell, and then comes begging for help not 6 mths later.
But rah, rah, anyway, right? Why bother to fix things when you can simply sing a song and forget it?
Posted by: RJ at September 10, 2003 at 05:25 AMYah, I think it's a damned shame that not only do we indoctrinate these poor, little kids, we had to go and build that giant wall around the country to prevent all those "super educated" types from fleeing this hellhole to the more congenial places like Cuba, North Korea, Libya, France, etc. We have even prevented all but a very few from taking the Underground Railroad to Canada.
Bastards! We will yet be free. We will move at will, unconstrained. We will . . . . (Just a sec. What's that? No wall?? Free to leave at will?? Huh?? When did this happen? 1776??????? What the . . . .?)
Never mind. (Emily Litella)
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at September 10, 2003 at 05:34 AMRJ - labeling someone who thinks you're trolling a blind nationalist is a sign of very poor reasoning. Where did you get your education?
All that is required is that he thinks you are wrong and purposefully trying to irritate people. That's a 'troll'.
RJ Blather:
We love to call this the greatest country on earth, yet less than 50% of us even bother to vote and only 20% can be bothered to read a newspaper.
And this has anything to do with what? If somebody chooses not to vote then that is a vote of another kind. What is this big preoccupation with voting by the left.
And we aren't the least bit embarrassed by being the largest industrial nation with 40 million people without healthcare.
This is plain BS. The best health care in the world is available in this country. Anyone too poor to afford it can go to the Emergency Room where they are cared for. Oh, you mean Socialist Health Care. You're free to move to Canada.
Nor are some of us seeminly embarrassed by a president who tells the world to go to hell, and then comes begging for help not 6 mths later.
No, the world told us to go to hell when we decided to remove a dictator that nobody else had the balls to stand up to.
Posted by: Yosemite Sam at September 10, 2003 at 05:53 AMSo RJ, are you proposing that 9 year old schoolkids need to read newspapers and vote instead of sing songs? You're ridiculous.
What good is having 100% of the voting age population actually vote if less than 20% of them read newspapers and can even pretend to be informed? Many people don't vote because they are unpretentious enough to know that they just don't care enough and therefore shouldn't bother to waste their time or negatively influence the process by their misguided ignorance.
40 million w/o healthcare? How many of those are people who came here illegally, and their children? We must be a sad, sad country when our people don't vote or read the paper, we can't provide healthcare to millions of people, and yet everybody in the world wants to move here anyway!
Posted by: Andrew at September 10, 2003 at 05:57 AMHaving just read Robert Kagan's "Of Paradise & Power", Gumbel's piece smacks of typical blinded European arrogance that fails to acknowledge the need for a democratic society that can guarantee peace and prosperity through the use of power. Our kids sing these songs and we stand for ballpark anthems because we, as a society, know the hard road we have had to travel and appreciate the (apparently) lonely hard job we have ahead of us in a law of the jungle world. Is it political indoctrination or a mere heart-felt honorific? I guess that depends on how you view the society. Gumbel believes we're imperial Rome or Japan and is more willing to ascribe sinsister political motives for the weaker aspects of our public schools (weaknesses that are already well-perceived by the electorate and to which a lot of political energy is directed). Consequently, Gumbel lives among us and can only see degeneracy (thanks for the Hamilton quote Calvin). I wonder if he even talked to any of the teenagers or college kids who are so woefully unprepared for a political life (whatever that is). What simplistic ideological nonsense! But is sure sells paper in the U.K -- since the current debate in the U.K. has been the utter failure of the private (read in the U.S. as public) educational curriculum foisted on the U.K. system by the Leftists in the 1970's.
Posted by: Peter at September 10, 2003 at 05:58 AMWow, RJ.
Call all the commenters stupid, insult the host, accuse another commenter of nationalism for noting your trolling, strengthen your position with more simple assertions, then close with Johnny Depp talking points.
That is quite a fireworks display.
Bravo.
Posted by: Calvin at September 10, 2003 at 06:01 AMI hadn't heard of Gumbel. Is he important?
So we don't know geography?
Huh.
You won't like it when we learn your geography. We do it pretty thoroughly. Then you have to study it all over again, because a lot of it will have changed.
My father knows a lot about Western Europe, at least a strip of it three hundred yards wide and three hundred miles long. It isn't what it was when he got there, but I guess the locals have fixed up some of it.
Do you really want us to study geography?
Posted by: Richard Aubrey at September 10, 2003 at 06:02 AMRJ,
No, I am not embarrassed that we do not have a natinal healthcare system. I consider it (a) not a legitimate objective of a limited government, and (b) a massive redistribution of wealth. My answer to those who clamor for such is go out and get yours. I did. As for being embarrassed regarding our President, you are entitled to your opinion and I refuse to be drawn into an irrelevant political discussion.
Second, I hardly consider my love of country to be jingoistic or not "an adult love." To suggest that you are more "adult" in nature betrays a certain, dare I say, liberal and unwarranted, smugness. I agree that I wish that we had greater voting participation. I agree that I wish our populace was more well read. But it is not my place, nor yours, to force people to do these things. It is a matter of free will (that pesky concept again).
But your decrying these short comings does nothing to address my salient points - the USA offers greater social and economic opportunities than any other country. It is up to the individual to take advantage of them.
Posted by: sleper at September 10, 2003 at 06:05 AMSleper -- Why are you feeding the Trolls? ;) Gumbel's the idiot-savant target of Tim's post, not the Troll.
Posted by: Peter at September 10, 2003 at 06:09 AMLet's re-imagine this part:
Schoolroom maps of North America detail city names, roads and rivers within the continental United States, but invariably leave the areas within Canada and Mexico blank, as though reality itself stopped at the national border.
Suppose the maps did show Calgary as well as Bismarck, Monterrey as well as Miami? What then?
Schoolroom maps of North America make no distinction between the US and Canada or Mexico; it is all one mass, one culture, one asphalt ribbon, there for the taking, as though Canada had never existed, the Mexican War had never been fought, and as if none but white people had ever called this continent home US imperialism yadda yadda yadda.....
Posted by: Tom at September 10, 2003 at 06:27 AMGumbel's piece made me laugh out loud. I haven't seen such a display of ignorance and hatred of American culture since I speeches I have read made by national socialists in Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
I am an European who emigrated to the US at the age of 28.
I was born in Norway, went to public schools in Norway and the Netherlands. My kids are now in the US public school system. My experiences from both sides of the Atlantic have taught me that European schools are in fact MUCH more ignorant of the world around them than their American counterparts.
The public school system in most parts of Western Europe is in essence pure indoctrination by almost exlusively leftist teachers born out the radical movements in the late 60s and 70s. Incapable of objectively viewing the US, they spew the irrational emotional outbursts now displayed by Mr. Gumbel. European children are taught by an early age such one-sided drivel that "the American government control democracies in Latin America"; or that "the American international agenda is driven by big business and corporate greed".
In contrast, Casto's horrid regime in Cuba is given little or no concern for critique in European schools, nor is the proper attention given to the millions of people slaughtered in the name of collectivism and socialism on the European continent in the past century.
People like Gumbel should not be taken seriously in public debate, since their motives are entrenced in irrational thought and emotional nonsense.
"yet less than 50% of us even bother to vote"...why yes, it should be manditory, as it was in Saddam's Iraq, or the Soviet Union, because that proves real freedom..."only 20%...read newspapers"...and the NYTimes should be required reading--there will be a test tomorrow to determine your standing as a comrade...er, citizen..."40 million without healthcare [insurance]"...it's not 40 million sick people, it's 40 million, mostly young, mostly healthy that have chosen to go without a backup insurance plan because the poor and elderly have been subsidized, and hospitals cannot, by law, refuse anyone in need of medical care--it's a rational choice given the facts.
It's amazing that those who would "correct it when it is wrong" pretend to know so much better that the free choices we make are the problem, and that state-imposed, one-size-fits-all solutions are the answer.
Finding fault with the lumpen masses will win no converts to your point of view. Try posing answers to the problems you see--one's that include the exercise of free will.
Posted by: Forbes Tuttle at September 10, 2003 at 06:42 AMBTW RJ, My nationalism is not blind. It is the product of cold reason and first hand experience. There are few if any places in the world where individual liberty is better protected and hard work and initiative are better rewarded than in the USA.
Posted by: Alex at September 10, 2003 at 06:45 AMthere is nothing difficult about peddling stereotypical distortions of the enemy of the moment."
I wonder if the old hippy who dislikes "A Grand Old Flag" will point out to his daughter that Gumbel is also peddling a stereotyped distortion?
RJ,
Could you please be so kind as to identify the things that underlie your "more adult love for our country". I mean, after all, in your post, the only things I could detect were contempt for its people, disgust with its economic system, and hatred for its political culture. Or is it safe to assume that yours is "more like puppy love, blind devotion that has no time for reason or debate"?
Posted by: Bill at September 10, 2003 at 07:26 AMThis is priceless:
"The Christian fundamentalist agenda is so strong that Aids researchers at the National Institutes of Health are now afraid of using words like "homosexual", "gay" or "anal sex" in their work."
Umm, yeah, we're all living under the boot of the Dreaded Christian Fundamentalists (TM). That's why it was the AMERICAN branch of the C. of E. that became the first member of the Anglican Community to annoint a gay bishop while the British branch waffled on the issue. That's why New York City has a public high school set aside exclusively for gay and lesbian kids. That's why the US Supreme Court (most of whom were appointed by REPUBLICAN presidents) recently overturned all the country's sodomy laws.
This whole essay is nothing but a cliched exercise in obnoxious, politically correct Eurosnobbery.
Now tell me again why 400,000 Yanks sacrficed their lives in two wars to help out that perennially fucked up Continent? Gumbel should thank his lucky stars that American boys in 1916 and 1944 were "brainwashed" to serve our country because they sure as hell wouldn't have made the supreme sacrifice to save his shitty little Continent for any other reason.
Posted by: Susan at September 10, 2003 at 07:28 AM"America, I Love You?" I never heard of that one despite putting in my time in the local elementary school. Sounds like a Barney song hahahaha --- channeled through a cheery 1920's sensibility.
"America I love you!
And there's a hundred million others like me!"
Since the population of the U.S. is now about 280 million, the tune is showing its age.
Also, my bet is that Gumby is about as attractive as Andrew Gilligan is and was spurned by any number of blonde brunette and redheaded Californians over the years. He's probably married to a Claire Short type. It's twisted sexual envy is all--no need to fisk him.
Posted by: Daniel Calto at September 10, 2003 at 07:50 AMRJ,
I have been living in the UK for the last 6 months. Seeing national health care hear makes me extatic we don't have national health care in the US. In my short time I have seen one person loose an organ because she could not get timely treatment. I have seen others suffer needlessly because proper care is not given, all to save money. These systems have budgets. to meet the budgets there refuse treatment. I am happy to pay to live longer and keep my body parts, thanks.
Posted by: andy at September 10, 2003 at 08:25 AMHere's another disgusting item by Andrew Gumbel, this one thinly disguised as a news story:
"Pentagon targets Latinos and Mexicans to man the front lines in war on terror"
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=441886
Simple regurgitation of the oft debunked theory that minorities are overrepresented in combat ranks. I'm sure someone else can supply a link, but i distinctly remember the DOD supplying proof positive that in fact the opposite was true. Its an outright shame that a hack like this can work for the Independent, and indeed to have a clearly ravenous anti-American in the 'Americas' depot is dispicable.
Posted by: Mark Buehner at September 10, 2003 at 08:58 AMI've lived in Southern California my entire life, and mere words cannot adequately express the absolute shock and happiness I feel that something patriotic actually occurred at one of our schools. Let's have more Team America, please.
Esecially amusing is Gumbel's shock that many young students don't know that Germany was ever divided, let alone re-unified. Indeed - these days who honestly CAN tell that there was ever a "West" Germany?
Cameron
Posted by: ccwbass at September 10, 2003 at 09:17 AMIMO, if this guy wants to criticize things like this, he should move to a place where it's okay to be unpatriotic. When your country is under attack, this kind of dissent CANNOT be tolerated, and is completely repugnant to loyal Americans.
Sure, these kids may be too young to think logically about their nation and culture and form their own opinions. I mean, geez, that's the perfect time for them to be learning to patriotic. That's what they do in places like North Korea and the P.R.C., and look how united those people are.
On top of that, this guy is a BRITISH journalist, a damn foreigner, fercristsake. How dare he have any thoughts whatsoever about this great country. He should either get in line with the rest of right-thinking patriotic Americans, or get the hell out.
Y'know, we should get something into that Patriot Act that would allow the government to check out the stuff these guys write before it gets onto the wires.
Posted by: znoid at September 10, 2003 at 09:45 AMI have a first grader in a Los Angeles area public school (and these are six-to-seven year olds, folks. Not exactly hardcore readers of daily newspapers, and their taste in public television runs more toward Mr. Rogers than Mr. Lehrer). Their curriculum has included a heavy dose of "America the Beautiful"-type items, for which I am grateful. Keep in mind, at this age, kids barely understand the notion of a "country," let alone the socio-economic-political ramifications of such an entity. Moreover, in our ethnically diverse yet moderately affluent area (my little redhead is a distinct minority), I am pleased that these kids, most of whose parents and grandparents began their lives elsewhere in the world, are at least getting a basic appreciation for the country in which they live. You have to start somewhere in your knowledge of the country. The opportunities for sharp analysis will come later. For now, just knowing what the USA is will be sufficient. Parents who are offended by such oppressive indoctrination are free to counsel their children about the horrible ills of America as they see fit on their own time ... after all, they're free to do so.
Posted by: Dave at September 10, 2003 at 09:47 AMOoh, such a wit your are Znoid. A 21st century Mencken.
Gumbel's comments are silly. And indefensible. And another example of the left's sneer and cynicism that they think is a substitute for thought.
But you even topped him.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG at September 10, 2003 at 10:00 AMMaybe he could pinch material from "I hate Israel".
And there's a hundred million others like me!
Who walk like me, talk like me, help kick dictator butt like me...
Posted by: Andjam at September 10, 2003 at 10:01 AMInteresting - he's embarrassed by stirring patriotic songs. Well, how 'bout this one:
(I actually like it and I'm not a Brit. Helps explain why the Brits are so keen to help us rid the world of a scumbag like Saddam).
Rule Britannia
When Britain first at Heaven's command,
Arose from out the azure main,
This was the charter, the charter of the land,
And guardian Angels sung this strain,
Chorus
Rule, Britannia, Britannia rule the waves,
Britons never will be slaves!
The Nations (not so blest as thee)
Must in their turns to Tyrants fall,
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.
Chorus
Still more majestick shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.
Chorus
Thee, haughty Tyrants ne'er shall tame:
All their attempts to bend thee down,
Will but arouze thy gen'rous flame,
But work their woe, and thy renown.
Chorus
To thee belongs the rural reign,
Thy cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject Main,
And ev'ry shore it circles thine.
Chorus
The Muses still with Freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coasts repair; Blest Isle!
With matchless beauty crown'd,
And manly hearts to guide the Fair.
Chorus
Posted by: A Jackson at September 10, 2003 at 10:32 AMFrom the article:
Among the geopolitical interpretations he considered was Noam Chomsky's - as ignored by mainstream US opinion as it is revered on university campuses at home and abroad - in which US foreign policy is seen not as a force for global democratisation but as a blunt instrument of neo-imperialist conquest and corporate expansionism.
Noam Chomsky the ardent apologist for Pol Pot & the Khmer Rouge? Andrew Gumbel is one sick piece of shit. Chomsky’s geopolitical views are not as “revered” throughout the colleges & universities as they are ignored, thank goodness, in the US generally. Plenty of academics hate or ignore him. He is popular with some. Andrew Gumbel thinks that we should pay much more attention to the views of a Pol Pot apologist. I guess Andrew Gumbel yearns for millions more of murders by violence & starvation. There are no two ways about it. To speak approvingly of Chomsky’s politics is to approve of the systematic murder of millions. Andrew Gumbel = Noam Chomsky = Pol Pot.
Posted by: ForNow at September 10, 2003 at 10:38 AMI also love the idea that ANY criticism of someone like this idiot is censorship. Hey! His free speech (and he's not even a citizen. Kids, don't try this trick in Cuba [or in some cases in Western Europe], you could get fined/tried/jailed) doesn't trump my free speech just bedause he's a big-brained type like Numb Chimpsky and I'm just a lowly serf.
Posted by: JorgXMcKie at September 10, 2003 at 11:28 AMTo repeat someone's joke from about a month ago:
How can you tell when British Airways has landed?
The whining keeps right on going when the engines shut down.
Don't worry about Gumbel. The sun set on the British Empire years ago.
Bit sad really. All they can do now is carp at everyone else.
Especially successful, proud, patriotic others.
You have to feel sorry for them though.
Their next door neighbour is France.
Posted by: ilibcc at September 10, 2003 at 11:36 AMAndrew Gumball says: "And we aren't the least bit embarrassed by being the largest industrial nation with 40 million people without healthcare."
Ya, that's right why can't we have a health care system like.....ohhh... say France, where 15,000 (that's right 15 THOUSAND) elderly people died in a August from and abundance of heat and a lack of health care. I was impressed how quickly the French government recalled all the funeral workers to get the backlog cleared up until I remembered that mass burial has always been socialism's strong suit.
Link to story
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20030909_947.html
or maybe canada's health care is a better example. You remember canada, the only country in the western world with a SARS outbreak. Forty four dead of SARS in canada out of a population of 30 million while China with a population of 1 billion only suffered 349 deaths. That's right canada had a higher SARS death rate than China. I love the way canadians are always going on about their public health care system and how it somehow proves that they're better than Americans.
Link to story.
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2003/06/30/123688-cp.html
How come those backwards yankees can't have a health care system like France or canada?
Posted by: John at September 10, 2003 at 11:48 AMandy, why don't you come to New Zealand? We have public healthcare here, for free. Anyone welcome. You might have to wait a few hours (or days), but he, its free! And sometimes people die due to the long waiting lists, but he, it's free! It's not the best in the world, but he it's free! And the public health system might ship you off to Australia for treatment, but he, it's free!
Posted by: Berend de Boer at September 10, 2003 at 11:50 AMExcuse me, Mr. Gumble, let's not let facts get in the way. There are 40 million Americans withouth health INSURANCE, not HEALTHCARE. The vast majority are young Americans who don't think they need it.
To be sure, we have a problem with poor children but we have an array of national, state and local programs to take care of them. Free vaccinations, WIC, Medicaid, et cetera.
We can do more - which country can't - but to say 40 million people without any health care is deeply disingenous.
Par for Mr. Gumbel's course.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG at September 10, 2003 at 11:53 AMA person having major surgery under national healhcare in the UK is four times as likely to die as a person in the U.S. undergoing the same surgery.
I think I'll stick with our shitty health system, thank-you-very-much.
John, I have a feeling that China's medical records are about as accurate as Indymedia's Iraq war fatality estimates.
Posted by: Sarah e.g. at September 10, 2003 at 12:38 PMSteveMG writes
Ooh, such a wit your are Znoid. A 21st century Mencken.
What are you, a french intellectual? Who's Mencken anyway, aside from a name you want to drop?
Gumbel's comments are silly. And indefensible.
Duh, that's what I said. Except that "silly" is a bit limp-wristed, I wouldn't have used it.
Point is, at this age kids think that their country is the best because they were born in it. Guess that's true of any, country, huh? But if our schools are building on that to make better Americans, fine by me, and too bad for crybaby Gumball. If singing patriotic songs is going to mold more American who won't put up with crap from foreigners, as we're seeing here, then more power to 'em.
And if SteveMG has any more effeminate trolling to do, why not just take it to your french intellectul buddies, they're more likely to appreciate it. Phhh. Mencken.
Posted by: znoid at September 10, 2003 at 12:44 PMI never heard of that song either, personnally I like the old "School House Rock" songs. My kids watch the America Rocks! one all the time. We like to sing "No More King" and "Elbow Room"
My sister taught them to say "The Constitution says I have rights!" and my five year old is being taught about her patriot forefathers, all the way back to the French and Indian war.
I teach about freedom and compassion, the last thing my daughter needs is for me to ruin her esteem by blaming all the worlds ills on her. I can let the left do that in college.
You know, Znoid may just be our stupidest troll yet.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at September 10, 2003 at 01:04 PMWell, as John Derbyshire wrote (hat tip to Daimnation), "Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a well-dressed Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all, enjoy free healthcare and 100% literacy."
And most probably 100% voter turnout, eh, RJ?
Or something close to that.
Posted by: Sandy P. at September 10, 2003 at 01:07 PMJeezus, Znoid, have you no life? None at all?
Perhaps stamp collecting? Coins?
No one wishes to arrest Mr. Gumbel. Or prevent him from expressing his views. The Patriot Act has been wildly exagerrated and mischaracterized by you leftwingers.
Should I even try here, folks? Triumph of hope over experiences, I suppose.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG at September 10, 2003 at 01:21 PMSarah, you think Canada's medical records are any more reliable than China's ones?? And the Chinese may have a few thousands years more experience than Canada. As you couldn't backup your claim, I take it you can't.
Posted by: Berend de Boer at September 10, 2003 at 01:22 PMThis post is from an Aussie who has the eperience of having lived & worked in the USA. I have read the Andrew Gumble article & I have read the prior postings. The article is a good example of the thinking of a person who sees the the US & the world through a narrow simplistic slot, a person who cannot see the big picture.
Some of the response postings exhibit much of the same mentality.
As an Aussie, I wish that our people could somehow develop the sense of nationality I saw in the US. Here, when our National anthem is played, most stay seated in silence. Being proud of one's country, being patriotic, is considered to be un-Australian. Long ago, left wing pressures caused the prior daily school ritual of swearing allegiance to the flag to be discarded.
Here, most people will argue that Australia is egalitarian-- but it is not egalitarian--we have a nation where the notion of egalitarianism has been replace by an inverted snobbery--- where pride in self, in a persons' achievements,and pride of country is teated with contempt.
Along the way we in Australia adopted many of the socialist world's notion of 'everything for free". Sadly, this has created a situation where, for example in medical care, the cost is now 9% of GDP-- a totally unsustainable cost. I could give many more examples.
So, to all the Yanks {that's what you are called in Australia] I say---ignore the narrow visioned fools such as the journo of discussion---encourage your children at an early age to sing whatever song expresses a pride in nationhood--stand tall whenever your National anthem is played--be proud to be American, for you have reason for pride. Gadfly
Berend, eh? Are you being sarcastic? Please let me know lest I waste time shredding a post intended as a joke.
Posted by: Sarah e.g. at September 10, 2003 at 02:16 PMSpeaking of Australia, here's their song:
Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong,
Under the shade of a coolibah tree,
And he sang as he watched and waited 'til the billy boiled
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda,
Who'll come a-waltzing Matilda with me?
Analyse that, Gumby.
Gadfly:
Thanks.
And again, thanks to the Aussies for helping us.
We didn't want this awful battle. Hell, we've been sleepwalking for 25 years or so when confronted with this extremism. We'd rather spend the time raising our families, going to work, going to the ballpark. America seeks no empire - wouldn't know what the hell to do with it even if we had one.
Steve
Posted by: SteveMG at September 10, 2003 at 03:04 PMGumbel's article was well-written and full of excellent insights on the sorry state of US education.
FUCK ALL YOU RIGHT WING FASCISTS!!
Thanks, George. Your second line was well-written, too.
Posted by: ilibcc at September 10, 2003 at 03:30 PMAnd then along comes George. Some people will do anything for first prize.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at September 10, 2003 at 03:54 PMGeorge:
There a many sites which service 15 year olds.
Stick to them. Gadfly
Andrew Gumbel.
Andrew Gilligan.
Andrew Wilkie.
Andrew Bartlett.
Andrew Murray.
The Andrew sisters.
Posted by: pooh at September 10, 2003 at 05:58 PMTo Mr. Gumbel and bloggers:
I write as a Californian who's ties to the state go back to the mission/rancho days (on Dad's side and English/mid-western on Mom's side).
I thank God, or whatever post-modern deity you worship in Europe, that my ancestors came to the New World and stayed here. Most latter arrivals in California came to make a better life for themselves and also those living in proximity. And then came those such as Mr. Gumbel - an unexplicably sneering lot devoid of manners. "No body thinks in LA" they sniff as they get off the plane.
It is not about a different opinion, it is not about love of country. It is about visiting someone elses' home and being SO GODDAMN full of yourself that you end up calling your hosts the equilavent of "a bunch of ignorant niggers" because you do things differently AND you are so insecure that you'd better say something - because the hosts seem so irritatingly healthy, happy and, yes, BETTER LOOKING than you.
We are BETTER because we are NOT a mono-racial country (actually we're a bunch of Mutts!), we actually try to help starving peoples because IT'S A GOOD THING TO FEED THE HUNGRY, and you are NOT DEFINED HERE BY YOUR GREAT_GRANDPARENTS - it is up to you to make something of yourself.
Mr. Gumbel, Sir, you are the equivalent of biped VEAL. Sure, there were noble, intellegent Europeans - sadly none survived past 1919.
Posted by: Californio at September 10, 2003 at 06:18 PMGumbel:
'Just sending children off to school in the first place is a traumatic decision in a society where the pressure, increasingly, is to hold them back as long as possible to spare them any unnecessary stress.'
A traumatic decision. Any unnecessary stress.
I can imagine Gumbel frowning in the supermarket over packages of food to see what ingredients are going to kill Gumbel Jnr.
You would hate to be Gumbel Jnr. Overprotected. From all the wrong things.
Kid needs protecting from his father.
Posted by: ilibcc at September 10, 2003 at 06:24 PMznold-
Let me see if I can explain this to you. Then you can go back to your collective and explain it to the other lefto-droids...
Gumbel has the right to peddle his lame-brained, lazy, intellectually auto-erotic crap to his newspaper.
And we have the right to say he is an asshole.
See, freedom of speech is a two-way street. Hysterical sniping about neo-McCarthyism any time someone criticizes something you or a fellow traveller says is nothing more than a cynical attempt at your own particular brand of whining, martyred censorship.
Is that clear? Or are you the calculating, cynical, lying lefto-archetype rather than the lock-step, addle-pated, logically-deficient lefto-archetype?
Posted by: Dave S. at September 10, 2003 at 06:33 PMHasn't the tradition of singing Land of Hope and Glory" at the London summer prom concerts been banned recently? I get the feeling some people in Britain would lilke to see it declared a form of hate speech. Not to mention "Rule Britannia". When I was living in London, a Wagnerian type soprano did that as an encore after the ecstatic applause for Elgar's rather stirring music (I'm not one for anthems, but this has one does have a bit of class).
Posted by: Dave F at September 10, 2003 at 07:46 PMThe last paragraph of Gumbel's piece begins:
Ignorance, self-delusion, free-floating disregard for the facts
and an unswerving belief in its own infallibility: such are the
hallmarks of today's America.
Alongside this piece the Independent has a link to another story; the link's words were
The United States of Anxiety: survey reveals a jittery nation overcome with self-doubt.
Well? Which is it?
Posted by: GA at September 11, 2003 at 01:18 AM"some of us perfer a more adult love for our country"
Hmmmm adult love
Posted by: LB at September 11, 2003 at 02:40 AMDave S. writes
See, freedom of speech is a two-way street.
To hell with freedom of speech. Just another worn-out seventeenth century liberal pipe-dream. The founding fathers were living in a low-tech, information-poor culture, and had no idea of the power of persuasion, and the benefits to the nation of total conformity. And don't get me started on the rest of the "democratic" process that we hang on to like it meant something. Look at this frigging state's gubernatorial, for example. The front runner is practically a cartoon character. Why not just do away with the figurehead? No great loss.
I'm off-topic. So. This journalist is complaining that his kid is singing a sappy patriotic song, professing to love the country despite being too young to form critical judgments about said country. He extrapolates it into a statement about the condition of the nation in the global community. Thereby sparking righteous anger in the truly patriotic.
If the "free speech" you mention is truly two way, then why the anger? Let him have his say to his countrymen (it IS a British newspaper, after all). Who cares, right? Bullshit. Down deep, way way down, in that secret place, most of you want this guy to keep his Limey comments to himself. C'mon, admit it. Embrace your inner fascist.
Znoid writes: "Down deep, way way down, in that secret place, most of you want this guy to keep his Limey comments to himself. C'mon, admit it. Embrace your inner fascist."
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but no, I don't want to force Mr. Gumbel to keep his comments to himself. It would, however, be nice if he were to treat American culture with the same respect that multi-cultis say is due to everyone.
Posted by: Mrs. Raven at September 11, 2003 at 04:51 AMHenceforth znold - your name shall be - the bongmeister.
Posted by: Joe at September 11, 2003 at 05:32 AM
"Down deep, way way down, in that secret place, most of you want this guy to keep his Limey comments to himself. C'mon, admit it. Embrace your inner fascist."
Sorry to piss on your fantasy, z-dog, but down deep, way way down, I'm a libertarian. And I like to argue. So I like when dipshits like Gumbel make retards of themselves so I can tell them what dipshits they are. Now, you lefties with your speech codes and cries of "stifling of dissent" to intimidate people who disagree with you - you're not just embracing your inner fascists, you're giving them hot sweaty animal love with a reach-around.
If you want to ascribe "inner fascism" to me, feel free - I believe psychologists call it "projection."
Posted by: Dave S. at September 11, 2003 at 05:56 AMMr. Gumbel is correct about the textbooks. However, he fails to acknowledge much of the fault is the multiculturalism forced down our throats by his American pseudo-intellectual brethren.
Overall, Mr. Gumbel's work does give us pause: We have very few real friends in the world.
Posted by: Bill at September 11, 2003 at 06:26 AMDave S
...down deep, way way down, I'm a libertarian
Ooooo, a libertarian. Scratch a libertarian, find a nutjob who slaps on a pseudo-political moniker to give his complete lack of a clue some semblance of legitimacy. The libertarian credo doesn't even have self-consistency. Less government intrusion, oh, unless my property rights are infringed, then, yes, lots please. Sheesh. Or maybe you meant "librarian"...
I believe psychologists call it "projection."
I believe psychologists call it "you're an asshat, sir." You're missing the point completely. I'm not saying that it's wrong to dump all over this guy for stating his opinion, I'm saying good for you, go at it, but don't pretend that you're interested in free speech. The guy has posted some criticisms he has, and the jingoistic screed on this message board doesn't intelligently address a single one of his points. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I love a hysterical lynch mob as much as the next patriot does. Let's just not pretend that we're all liberal-like and such, okay bubba?
Posted by: Znoid at September 11, 2003 at 07:08 AMMrs. Raven writes
I'm sorry to disappoint you, but no, I don't want to force Mr. Gumbel to keep his comments to himself. It would, however, be nice if he were to treat American culture with the same respect that multi-cultis say is due to everyone.
Grrrr, now I'm pissed. You made me read that stinking article AGAIN (and it's too damn long) 'cause I was looking for the lack of respect in it. Couldn't find any, unless you want to interpet his criticisms as lack of respect.
Could you point out the part you're thinking of? Much obliged.
Bill writes
Mr. Gumbel is correct about the textbooks. However, he fails to acknowledge much of the fault is the multiculturalism forced down our throats by his American pseudo-intellectual brethren.
Uh huh. How would that go? "However, I acknowledge that much of the fault is the multiculturalism forced down their throats by my American pseudo-intellectual brethren." Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick, boy, that's a seriously lame comment.
Overall, Mr. Gumbel's work does give us pause: We have very few real friends in the world.
Which ones were you thinking of that are still standing by us? Albania and Bulgaria? Oh yeah, and Britian. I guess this Gumbel's still one of our friends, despite the critique. Operation "Piss Off the Planet" was pretty much a screaming success, huh? But then again, who needs the fellowship of other nations?
Posted by: znoid at September 11, 2003 at 08:44 AMZnoid:
"Which ones were you thinking of that are still standing by us?"
Us? Us? You're an American?
If you're in the foxhole with me, neither one of us will be getting much sleep.
SMG
Posted by: SteveMG at September 11, 2003 at 12:13 PMDon't take this guy too seriously. His sole purpose as foreign correspondent is to reinforce stereotypes already in place in his home country. It's called brainwashing.
Posted by: Drek at September 12, 2003 at 12:18 AM"Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick, boy, that's a seriously lame comment." That's a seriously lame comment.
It's rather odd that Andrew Gumbel would send his kid -- assuming young Gumbel's existence -- to a perfectly horrid American institution of indoctrination instead od a properly British school, several of which are available throughout the U.S.
Posted by: WHOZZATT at September 16, 2003 at 12:06 AM