December 12, 2004

REPUTATION INTACT

Remember how Australia's international reputation was completely destroyed in 2001 by our no-messing-around response to illegal immigration? Here's a collection of typical views:

Our reputation abroad has changed dramatically for the worst.

Australia's track record in relation to asylum-seekers has now become an international scandal and a disgrace to our reputation as a country strongly respectful of human rights and dignity.

Our reputation as a people who believe in a "fair go" for all has been severely, perhaps, irreparably, damaged. Many of us, for the first time in our lives, are now ashamed of being Australian.

It is Australia's reputation that's going in the trash bin here, not just the rights of the asylum seekers. The rest of the world will see this as Australia acting outside international law and dropping Australia's great reputation for humanitarianism.

Our system of mandatory detention is cruel and a blot on our reputation for humanity.

Prime Minister John Howard didn't quite see things that way, telling an interviewer in 2002: "I reject this claim that our reputation's been damaged. I think people understand that we have taken action in a difficult situation that is wholly consistent with the right of this country to protect its borders."

And it seems he was right. Just ask Ellen and Peter Bles, who are among many Dutch leaving their country for Australia and other reputable nations:

An exodus of native-born Dutch in search of a new life abroad has reversed immigration flows for the first time since the post-war era.

Last year more people left the Netherlands than arrived as migrants or asylum seekers, even though unemployment remains low at 4.7 percent and per capita income is higher than any major country in Europe.

Lawyers, accountants, computer specialist, nurses, and businessmen are lining up for visas to the English-speaking world, looking to Australia, New Zealand and Canada as orderly societies where people have the space to breathe.

The new wave of "middle-class flight" has quickened this year following rising ethnic violence and crime committed by and against immigrants, and in response to fears that social order is breaking down. In the first six months there was a net outflow of 13,313 people.

Requests for visa information have exploded since the murder of Theo van Gogh, a Dutch film-maker and acerbic critic of Muslim views on women.

It's likely that Australia's reputation was enhanced by coverage of the illegals/refugees/asylum seekers issue. If this story gets wider coverage locally, expect the left to respond with something along the lines of: We're attracting white racists! Shame, Howard, shame!

Posted by Tim Blair at December 12, 2004 03:21 AM
Comments

I wish America would secure its borders with the same attitude of Howard's. In the US, liberals think America to be a big department store: come and go whenever you please.

Posted by: Mark at December 12, 2004 at 05:10 AM

Remember that most of the people who moralise about the ill-treatment of illegal arrivals are the ideological descendants of the people (in some cases the same people) who supported the Soviet experiment and its worldwide export of terror and destruction. Oh dear, I am kicking the communist can. Shame on me. Perhaps I should say Sorry.

Posted by: Rafe Champion at December 12, 2004 at 06:04 AM

good post - more importantly Australia is still in charge of its own future. Holland doesnt really have any choices any more.

Posted by: Giles at December 12, 2004 at 06:07 AM

My folks were kicked out of Australia because of legal restrictions on how long resident aliens could stay in the country back in the late 1980s-early 1990s period (I think they were there for the balloon accident, the mobbing of Bush I, and the Bush I incident where he barfed in front of/on the PM of Japan).

I don't recall either one of them saying it was unfair or unjust, just that the law said they had to leave. I suppose that's because they had some respect for the concept of Australia's sovereignty.

Posted by: Murel Bailey at December 12, 2004 at 06:15 AM

Although the overwhelming majority of Americans (almost two-thirds) want more curbs on immigration, particularly illegal immigration, BOTH parties have acquiesced to the Open Borders lobby. Industry wants that flood of cheap workers. Both parties think the illegals will eventually end up as voters who will vote for their party. The Left wants a flood of hungry, dissatisfied people under their "The worse the better" rubric. Anyone who speaks out against illegal immigration is considered a racist. We are swamped with vast numbers of unassimilating non-English speakers. Bush is just as bad as the worst Leftist on this issue.

Kudos to Prime Minister Howard for his efforts of preserve Australia. Bush needs a good role-model.

Posted by: Kennon Barbie at December 12, 2004 at 06:16 AM

>Holland doesnt really have any choices any more.

Yes, I suppose the Dutch now say: "love your country but never trust your government".

Posted by: jorgen at December 12, 2004 at 06:33 AM

From the same article;

An all-party report by the Dutch parliament this year concluded that the country's immigration policy had been a failure, leading to sink schools and ethnic ghettoes.

Didnt rate a mention in WebDiary nominations under worst immigration policy

Posted by: rog at December 12, 2004 at 07:43 AM

Getting back to the communist can, here is a tribute to the people of the Association for Cultural Freedom who mounted a counter-offensive against the worldwide communist menace in 1948. Young people these days generally don't realise the hard yards that had to be made to hold the line in those dark days. We need to recapture their courage and committment again.

Posted by: Rafe Champion at December 12, 2004 at 07:58 AM

My first thought was to compare it with stories about people leaving the USA post-election, but in this case it is actually real.

I doubt this'll get as much media coverage as the merely anticipated exodus from the USA.

Posted by: Andjam at December 12, 2004 at 08:24 AM

Don't think views were "typical" as such. Well, among some they were. Of course, all that excitement seems to rest on the idea that anyone over the seas gives a rodent's behind about Australia's and/or its immigration policies. If remember correctly (with old age catching up probably don't), it was the Keating Labor Government who introduced mandatory detention in the early 1990s. Bugger all was heard about it, however, until Paul and his pyjamas had been well and truly put out to pasture. This is the trouble with a lot of this stuff, it is inspired by politics, not genuine concern. Americans should know that most of us don't spend our lives, regardless of our beliefs, walking around muttering "shame", "shame", "the end of world is nigh" like some "unwell" homeless person.

Posted by: Darlene Taylor at Blogspot at December 12, 2004 at 08:38 AM

I find it disturbing how one incident can cause an exodus of Dutchmen.
Have you no pride of country?
Was Holland just an accidental place of birth? Who will correct the problems of the Netherlands if you say shuck it all over one dead movie maker?
After all Muslim world conquest is a waning tide. This isn't a German Army perched on your border.
Buck up. It was just a murder. The thing to do is too pack the movie houses showing Van Gouge's movie. Patronize future intrepid movie makers who are fearless presenters of the true nature of Islam.
There is an excellent film titled ""Osama" making the rounds on pay per view which deals with the same subject as Van Gouges movie.
Honor his cause. Make it your own. Don't go running away from bullies.

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 09:38 AM

I find it disturbing how one incident can cause an exodus of Dutchmen. Have you no pride of country?

Oh please. Just because it's the first incident to make the worldwide news hardly means it's been only "one incident". In the context of Europe and its increasing problems with immigrants, stuff like van Gogh's murder rates more at the "straw that broke the camel's back" end of the scale.

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 09:50 AM

PS: Not to mention that, in the specific context of the Dutch, it wasn't even the first incident. Pim Fortuyn ring a bell?

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 09:51 AM

Australia When it comes to managing immigration, there's a lot to be said for having water on ALL your borders...

As for the American exodus, there was an unintentionally-funny piece on it in the LA Times this week. Apparently some folks are actually planning to leave (I know, I know, "don't let the border hit in the ass on the way out...")

The unintentionally-funny part was the guy they picked for their human-interest angle. He's a power-wheelchair salesman (who's moving to a country with, you know total and exclusive government provision of medical services) who says he expects to fit right in because the cultural values are essentially identical, "except, you know, for the arrogance and intolerance.

Of course," he and the article then finish, "I haven't met any French Canadians yet."

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 12, 2004 at 10:22 AM

The Dutch! Christ! We let ANYONE in! Who next?!? The Irish!

We should only let the Dutch in if they bring porn.

Posted by: Tony.T at December 12, 2004 at 10:27 AM

Still, I'm not sure that the best response to problems in one's country is to just pack up and leave.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 10:32 AM

It depends on who's doing the packing up and leaving. If it's the people causing the problems, I won't object... but I'm staying put. My home is worth fighting for.

Posted by: rosignol at December 12, 2004 at 11:03 AM

Let's just hope these are not the same leftist pricks coming here who first promoted and then voted for those policies in the Netherlands (and other European countries) in the first place.

Having met a Dutch person yesterday, who has been in Australia for 3 years and is now an active member of the Socialist Alliance here in Darwin, I am somewhat sceptical...as we all know, moonbats like these are the first ones to relocate for greener pastures (pun intended) when their beliefs have actually been implemented and start "bearing fruits" - i.e. bite them on the arse.

JPB

Posted by: JPB at December 12, 2004 at 11:05 AM


"Still, I'm not sure that the best response to problems in one's country is to just pack up and leave.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 10:32 AM "

That would be a very hard position to justify to a Jew leaving Europe in 1936.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that they have looked long and hard at the policies of their Govt (and surrounding Govts) and have seen that Europe may well be the wrong place for a non muslim to plan on spending their old age or for their children to grow up.

Posted by: Harry Tuttle at December 12, 2004 at 11:20 AM

Jesus Christ, Harry, what is your goddamn problem? Since when is the analogy between the native Dutch today and the Jews in 1936 at all parallel? Are native Dutch people being treated like second-hand citizens, forced to wear emblems on their clothes in public to identify them, forbidden to work in certain professions, and subject to official government abuse? In case you're too drunk or stupid to keep up, the problem the Dutch seem to have is that of an increasingly lawless and unassimilated ALIEN community in their midst causing havoc, exacerbated by a sluggish official response by a government hamstringed by their own efforts to accomodate Muslim immigrants and avoid being accused of "intolerance" by multiculti-pushing lefty pricks. What the fucking HELL has this to do with the Holocaust?

Goddamn it, I have banned people here for less stupid comments than that. Here's what you had better do: reach down, grab your ear, and give it a good hard tug until you've yanked your head out of your ass.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 11:45 AM

Andrea has my back on this thing. Bit harsh though.
Good for you, rosignol. Show em you got a pair.

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 12:02 PM


Poor Andrea, since you have had your bannings reversed by Tim in the past it's probably best to not threaten them unless there is a level of offensive behaviour that warrants it (hint, disagreeing with you does not equal offensive).

Parallels? Lets see, the writing was on the wall for Jews in 1936, the writing is on the wall for the native Dutch now - their own Govt immigration policies and muslim/christian birthrates guarantee that they will be outnumbered and out voted in their own country within their own lifetimes, similar policies and birthrates are prevalent in neighbouring countries.

You might also note that I didn't "the fucking HELL" mention the holocaust, you did.

But then the holocaust wasn't happening in 1936, but that certainly doesn't suggest that it was a bad idea for Jews to get out BEFORE it started.

Posted by: Harry Tuttle at December 12, 2004 at 12:50 PM

Still, I'm not sure that the best response to problems in one's country is to just pack up and leave.

I recall plenty of stories about people leaving California in droves due to the rampant leftism before Arnold became governor. I know it's not the same, but it's much better analogy than just setting "Netherlands" = "USA". For one, the idea of being patriotic to "one's country" just doesn't hold the same sway here in Europe (but that's another, whole different ball of wax), and for another, when a small country like the Netherlands goes to hell in a handbasket, you can't exactly move within to get away from the mess. It's not like somebody from Vermont who could just move to Tennessee or whatever.

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 12:57 PM

People have the right to do whatever they think is in the best interests of them or their families. The more pro western immigrants Australia gets the better as far as I am concerned.

By 2020 half of all Dutch people under the age of 18 are predicted to be Muslims. If they were assimilated properly then that wouldn't be a problem, but many of them haven't been and I'm afraid Holland is in for a rough ride as a result.

Posted by: gaz at December 12, 2004 at 01:01 PM

At any rate, I highly recommend reading this related article (which is linked from the one Tim linked to, but not obviously so, so it's easy to miss).

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 01:01 PM

PW The revenue-generating (and tax-paying classes upper middle, professional and small business) are still leaving California. But moving from one state to another is the not the same as leaving the entire country... or continent.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 12, 2004 at 01:11 PM

I live in California. There was no exodus from our state to escape the policies of Grey Davis. There was a relocation of corporate headquarters into neighboring Nevada and Arizona, but the media portrayal of that as real loss of population is just plain wrong. We merely had a percentage drop in the amount of immigrants coming into California during the Davis administration. California still and always increases in population, moreso I suppose, now that we have the Governator in office.

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 01:48 PM

But moving from one state to another is the not the same as leaving the entire country... or continent.

What I'm saying is that the mindset of a contemporary European leaving his country is probably closer to that of an American leaving e.g. California for another state, not to that of somebody leaving the U.S. altogether. All the "Stand Up And Fight To Take Back Your Country" talk in the posts above is wishful projection in that context. That's simply not how things work in Europe after 30+ years of slow and painful descent, particularly if you're one of the few people with libertarian tendencies (such as the Dutch couple the Telegraph articles talk about).

Europe's problems certainly can't be fixed merely by voting in other governments when the chance presents itself, since there literally is almost nobody running who would dare to confront the multitude of problems. (Until it's too late, anyway.) I rarely find myself disagreeing with Andrea, but Harry got it right: Smart people will try to get out while they still can.

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 01:50 PM

Hey, you know what, Tuttle? You can go straight to hell. Good-bye.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 02:05 PM

At any rate, I highly recommend reading this related article (which is linked from the one Tim linked to, but not obviously so, so it's easy to miss).

Thanks for linking to that article PW.

It was a scary read, actually, based on it, I don't envy the grandkids of the Dutch who stay behind and the future country that will be bequeathed to them.

Posted by: Quentin George at December 12, 2004 at 02:16 PM

Okay (dusts hands) another troll has been taken care of. You know, I really don't want to start banning entire IP blocks: a lot of people seem to use Telstra, and that would mean banning some commentors that don't deserve to be.

And that being said: well, PW, I think this is too bad:

What I'm saying is that the mindset of a contemporary European leaving his country is probably closer to that of an American leaving e.g. California for another state, not to that of somebody leaving the U.S. altogether. All the "Stand Up And Fight To Take Back Your Country" talk in the posts above is wishful projection in that context. That's simply not how things work in Europe after 30+ years of slow and painful descent, particularly if you're one of the few people with libertarian tendencies (such as the Dutch couple the Telegraph articles talk about).
The leftist idea that love of one's country = fanatical nationalism never really took on over here. I can see why Europeans feel this way; however, it doesn't change the fact that when the well-off flee, that leaves the poor and vulnerable at the mercy of whatever was causing people to leave in the first place. I can't help thinking that the people who seem to think that Europe is in a hopeless state and the only alternative is to flee the sinking ship are being just the tiniest bit dramatic and selfish. Strange -- someone here brought up the Jews before World War II. I seem to recall in my reading one reason so many Jews stayed in Europe until it was too late to get away was because they considered themselves to be citizens of their countries and didn't want to be forced to leave the lands they loved.

And by the way, to stave off anyone else who has been bitten by the stupidity bug, I am not saying that emigrants should be rounded up and forced to return to their homes and chained in the basement. Really, my initial comment, mild as it was, seems to have struck a nerve.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 02:27 PM

Papertiger I live in CA, too, and I've been watching the parade of folks I know; two of the four people I work with in my office now are talking about leaving. Hell, I'm looking at starting a small business in the next year or so myself and I don't see many attractions to keep me here from that standpoint.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 12, 2004 at 02:30 PM

Ya People I know talked about leaving also, but I notice other things which are more reliable indicators of the supposed exodus or lack there of. Four years ago the neighborhood I live in had many homes for sale. Now we have record prices for those same homes if you were lucky enough to find one on the market. My sister and her husband sold their house , which was in a severly rundown condition and used the proceeds to build a new house in a nearby city, bought a brand new car, and pocketed a tide chunk for their bank account. This would be impossible to do if people were really leaving California for different states. On my street there is exactly one house for sale now. A couple moved in six months ago and the husband had a fatal heart attack. Tragic for a 28 year old with two kids. They bought the house from a guy who did the same thing that my sister did, built a new house in the foothills from the equity. I imagine the widow will make a profit selling her house even though she is doing it out of necessity due to her personal misfortune. Inspite of only living in it for six months.

These are all real events which refute the notion of people fleeing from California . Perhaps some people relocate from the bay area (who could blaim them) But they are not moving very far. As for talk of leaving - did those people actually move, or did they just talk about it?

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 03:01 PM

"After all Muslim world conquest is a waning tide."

What planet are you on, Mate?

Demographgic projections predict Mahometan majorities in a number of European countries early this Century, with Holland one of the first.

There are already millions of Mahometans in Europe and their numbers are increasing every day, as native European birthrates fall faster and father below replacement level.

no, this isn't a German Army on the border - the Germans had powerful forces opposing them. The Mahommetan conquest doesn't.

Posted by: Sue at December 12, 2004 at 03:11 PM

Would the boneheads who think our excellent Assylum Seeker policy is damaging our reputation care to explain why most of the Western world is copying it?

It appears that our policy has improved our reputation.

Just shows how Aussies are ahead of the game.

Rotary clothes lines, Cascade Premium Lager, Piss Beer, Immigration policy.

Invented in Australia!

Posted by: Sheriff at December 12, 2004 at 03:16 PM

I think it hilarious that the Dutch are burning mosques. So very PC.

Sooner or later everyone in the world who is forced to live next to Muslims ends up at war with them. The only final choice is to burn the mosques or burn the churches, one has got to go.

And so the mosques burn today in the Netherlands, Kosovo, Ache, the Philippino north and Fallujah, and tomorrow in Paris, London and Sydney. Sooner or later the Muslims give everyone an ultimatum, destroy us or be our slaves. Well so be it.

I hate Islam like I hate all fascistic creeds. And I'm sorry to say that while I've met plenty of decent Indonesian and Pakistani Muslims, I've never met an Arab I didn't detest. In every case, as I got to know him, I got to hate him. I don't care if their mosques burn down. That makes me a bigot today, but in ten years? Maybe just ahead of my time.

Posted by: Amos at December 12, 2004 at 03:37 PM

Papertiger They've been traveliong and looking at properties and job offers in Nevada.

Posted by: richard mcenroe at December 12, 2004 at 03:42 PM

"Okay (dusts hands) another troll has been taken care of. You know, I really don't want to start banning entire IP blocks: a lot of people seem to use Telstra, and that would mean banning some commentors that don't deserve to be. "

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 12, 2004 at 02:27 PM

Yep, that went really well for you Andrea, what with it being reversed by Tim and all.

[Er, what are you talking about, dimbulb? Tim didn't have to "reverse" anything. You have dynamic IPS. When you log onto the internet using your primitive dialup modem you get a different IP each time. That's what I meant by having to block entire IP blocks. That prevents a range of IP addresses. I only blocked on of yours, out of courtesy to other members here. I guess that was a wasted gesture. Buh-bye again, ignoramus. The Management.]

I can understand jumping on trolls, but defining trolls as "those who disagree with Andrea" isn't helpful.

[But "those who are rude jerks" are trolls by my definition. The Management.]

Posted by: Harry Tuttle at December 12, 2004 at 03:53 PM

Anybody remember back in the 70's when the newsmags were giving us cover stories on the demographics of the population explosion?
Wasn't it supposed to be double or triple the then estimated 6 billion world population, by the turn of the century? I forget.

I think it is hard for a country like France, with their world reknown for undeserved self importance, to surrender the natives sovereighnty to Algerian import workers, especially since I see perpetual reports of their 9.9% unemployment rate coupled with an increasing segment of those unemployed filling French prisons. Muslim majority prisons.

Forget those prognosticators telling us that Europe is going to be subsumed by the Islamic demographic. Newspapermen are always going for the cheap _ OH MY GOD_ panic mongering prediction.

Here is the way it's going to go. Iraq will become a place more desirable for European muslim displaced workers - with wages on a par with what a welfair sucking undesirable pariah, with the added stigma of being a militant, shunned and castigated by the less then democratic minded elite European, could make in France.
As the new freedom is adopted in Iraq and Afghanistan, Euro muslims will immigrate there for jobs. The infection of prosperity will create something that has never been in the Arab states, a comfortable middle class. Iraq as a Model for the greater middle east will spread. It's ideas of freedom will trickle into the calsified and dilapitated medival government systems of the other middle east countries, even including, that sand pit, Algeria. Even more Euro Muslims will flee that continent carrying with them, as if it were a disease, the traditions and cultures they have doubtlessly picked up on their sojourne in Europe, and they will use those additional character traits to propel themselves to the upper middle class of the newly liberal middle east.

Who would put up with European haughty smugness and bigotry if they could make a decent living among their own countrymen?
In that not to distant future, Europe is only a welfair reform bill away from empty suburbs.

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 04:44 PM

Just returned to Montreal tonight after 10 months in Hanoi.

I discover that the government-owned liquor stores are closed because the overpaid, surly, resentful and ignorant unionized shop assistants at the government-owned liquor stores are on strike.

Oddly enough, in communist Vietnam, the private sector inports, produces and sells liquor. They do it pretty well too. A bottle of the old Jacob's Creek Shiraz in Hanoi is about $2 less than in Montreal

Fuck Canada, fuck Quebec, fuck socialism - I'm going to be the first illegal immigrant to sneak into Vietnam.

Also, it will be a long fucking time before the Vietnamese, other Bhuddists, mozzies, push-starts 0r pull-starts recognize faggot "marriage'


Posted by: jlchydro at December 12, 2004 at 05:00 PM

I can't help thinking that the people who seem to think that Europe is in a hopeless state and the only alternative is to flee the sinking ship are being just the tiniest bit dramatic and selfish.

Maybe so. People looking back at today's situation from 20 years on might disagree with you there and applaud people like the Bles' for being able to see the writing on the wall.

Strange -- someone here brought up the Jews before World War II. I seem to recall in my reading one reason so many Jews stayed in Europe until it was too late to get away was because they considered themselves to be citizens of their countries and didn't want to be forced to leave the lands they loved.

IMHO, patriotism is one thing; being blind to when your home country dips over from democracy into totalitarianism is quite another. (Which makes the Worldwide Left's reflexive bleating about Bushitler so incredibly grating and dangerous...it desensitizes people to the creeping totalitarianism in their own backyards.)

Perhaps my own possible lack of patriotism is shining through here, but there comes the point when you can better serve yourself AND your country by leaving. Fighting to reclaim your country from outside, from a place where you're not actually in danger of being killed, seems to me to be the better option in some cases. Especially when, as in Europe, ordinary people generally have no guns to defend themselves with.

Here is the way it's going to go. Iraq will become a place more desirable for European muslim displaced workers

Given how intensely nationalist most Muslims are, your prediction strikes me as somewhat unlikely. You really think most Algerian, Moroccan etc. Muslims would emigrate from Europe to Iraq? (For that matter, do you really think the Iraqis would let them in?) The few who actually would do that aren't Europe's problem since they'd be the ones who don't mind assimilating and working for a living. The problem are those who take advantage of the Euro welfare states and the European naivete about Islamism. Good luck getting those guys to go to the Middle East. I can't help but think you don't really understand the dynamics, Papertiger.

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 05:02 PM

I agree completely with Harry Tuttle. My advice to any Dutch friend would be: "Get out. If not for your own sake, then for the sake of your children and grandchildren. Let them grow up in a country where they'll be free, not dhimmis. Think of the Jewish minorities thoughout the Middle East except for Israel, because that's the future you'll be bequeathing your grandchildren if you stay. And think of Beslan. Don't let that happen to your descendants. Get up and go. Take your family to freedom."

I also agree with Gaz: "People have the right to do whatever they think is in the best interests of them or their families. The more pro western immigrants Australia gets the better as far as I am concerned." As long as these weren't the people who pushed for the policies that doomed their homeland, my attitude is: "How many can we have, please?"

Now ban away, Andrea, whether you get overruled or not it's fine by me. Between you and Harry Tuttle, there was only one making offensive remarks, and it wasn't him. If you confined yourself to only banning trolls, that would be all right, but you seem to think anyone who has a different opinion from yours is a troll. It's political correctness with a people's committee of one. You also made vaguely menacing noises when I took exception to the Abu Ghraib scandal. Your standover act has gotten old.

[Oh boo hoo! You've cut me to the quick. Pinky swear. The Management.]

Posted by: David Blue at December 12, 2004 at 05:04 PM

For a fairly balanced look at the "which way will Europe go?" question, here's a recent essay by the inimitable Victor Davis Hanson.

Posted by: PW at December 12, 2004 at 05:11 PM

PW
There are plenty of European muslim immigrants in Iraq already. Unfortunately, they are trying to kill our guys. Well some of them are trying to kill our guys. More of them are just talk about it. And still more of them are thinking, "Hey I can get a job here".

Posted by: Papertiger at December 12, 2004 at 05:48 PM

The Netherlands was the first country I travelled to where English wasn't its first language. I loved the place. Returning to the Netherlands twenty years later there did seem to be a fraying at the edges of society. Muslim kids riding outside on the back of the trams while their ineffectual mothers looked on seemingly unaware of the disapproving stares from the native Dutch. "Gypsies" punched and pushed off moving trams in front of us by native Dutch after apparently pickpocketing the American tourists...anyways lots of little incidents happened while I was there.

Just hope these Dutch don't think moving to Sydney will get them away from the antisocial Muslim behaviour(you're 25 yrs too late). After spending the past few weeks in California I would suggest you move to the USA if you want an ordered, civil, high trust society. Even my Swedish wife agrees.

Posted by: E.Rex at December 12, 2004 at 05:53 PM

Sort of allied to this theme, Professor Windschuttle now finds the White Australia Policy was Really Good Thing; well, at least not a Bad Thing. Apologies if this has been reported herein previously.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11597082%255E7583,00.html

At Scotch College (Swanbourne) in the 60s we were given an earful from the lefty English and history masters about how the WAP was a Really Bad Thing.

Posted by: Walter Plinge at December 12, 2004 at 06:23 PM

Please, please everyone, there's a healthy "third way" between stubbornly clinging to a dying nation and fleeing like a coward, it's called a scorched earth policy. A truly patriotic Dutch person would burn their house, blow up a windmill and salt the earth to deny their conquerors the spoils of war before leaving.

Posted by: Aussie_Jim at December 12, 2004 at 06:52 PM

I'd be willing to bet that the first in line for the exits are the elites who were the most fervent believers in the Dutch experiment in multi-culturalism and "tolerance." I wonder if they'll leave their moral superiority behind or bring it with 'em?

Meanwhile, back in the Netherlands, poor and working class Dutch who never bought into the multi-cultural dystopia (if they ever gave it any thought at all), but don't have the resources to pack up and leave will have to deal with the mess. And what a mess it will be. With a net OUTFLOW, that most likely means that the native Dutch are leaving faster than the Arab/Muslim colonists are arriving.

God help the Dutch. There has never been an instance in the history of mankind where a native population has been displaced by a migratory population without putting up a fight. This fight is going to be especially brutal.

Posted by: HA at December 12, 2004 at 10:21 PM

The Professor AKA Glenn Reynolds said in a recent post on immigration that the melting pot is best. I couldn't agree more.

The question to me as an American isn't so much whether those wishing to come to the U.S. are legal or illegal. The important thing is do they want to come here to work and contribute and become Americans. If they do, they're welcome no matter their education, race, religion, etc.

If they want to become hyphenated Americans, live in ethnic enclaves, collect welfare and expect the rest of us to respect their old county ways even if they go against our values and laws, then stay home where you can enjoy your own culture.

Our diversity is a wonderful stew full of different ingredients, not a bunch little side dishes clamoring for attention.

When you can have a Mexican-Italian restaurant in a rural area of Florida that has pizza/with taco toppings on the menu, then you understand what the phrase "Only in America" means.

How I wish you guys weren't so far away. We need each other.

Getting back to the Dutch. Make them go home and take their country back. Tell them to stand tall and show the rest of the world that there are still some un-girlie men and women left in Europe.

Posted by: erp at December 12, 2004 at 11:40 PM

Recent doco on the Dutch situation: Only people who cannot afford to pay privately leave their kids in public schools- resulting in monocultural schools. Non native Dutch people are pushing for arabic characters in the Dutch language instead of learning the local language.Australian doco (one of the many public tv and radio docos) did a bleeding heart on a family with two disabled kids.After detailing the misery for all involved, the many public welfare agencies co-opted to assist, much earnest praying etc the doco ended with a text to screen.Mrs --- is now pregnant with her ELEVENTH child.The husband's lowly paid job was not going to pay for more than at the most two.The obvious expectation from the doco's tone was that we should feel sympathy and empathy.Not only was that an indignity but the fact that we paid for the making of the doco.Switzerland will not allow even the children of immigrants to vote. I think it is the grandchildren.Sound idea?

Posted by: crash at December 12, 2004 at 11:43 PM

The Professor AKA Glenn Reynolds said in a recent post on immigration that the melting pot is best. I couldn't agree more.

The question to me as an American isn't so much whether those wishing to come to the U.S. are legal or illegal. The important thing is do they want to come here to work and contribute and become Americans. If they do, they're welcome no matter their education, race, religion, etc.

If they want to become hyphenated Americans, live in ethnic enclaves, collect welfare and expect the rest of us to respect their old county ways even if they go against our values and laws, then stay home where you can enjoy your own culture.

Our diversity is a wonderful stew full of different ingredients, not a bunch little side dishes clamoring for attention.

When you can have a Mexican-Italian restaurant in a rural area of Florida that has pizza/with taco toppings on the menu, then you understand what the phrase "Only in America" means.

How I wish you guys weren't so far away. We need each other.

Getting back to the Dutch. Make them go home and take their country back. Tell them to stand tall and show the rest of the world that there are still some un-girlie men and women left in Europe.

Posted by: erp at December 12, 2004 at 11:43 PM

I agree with the comments of "Sue" and "HA" above.

The Muslim conquest of Europe, thwarted for 1272 years, proceeds apace. Not a shot is being fired in defense. Spain capitulated al Andalus in the last elections. France is done for and too arrogant to realize it's plight. They are building Mosques at Oxford, for Christ's sake. Gibbon must rolling over in his grave. In the Netherlands, as in Lebanon, the Christians (and Secularists) flee the advancing Jihadi hoard instead of fighting it. They abandon their countrymen to Dhimmi status and their Country at last to the enemy.

The only bulwark against this tide is the Australian/American alliance (I used to say Anglo/American but I am no longer sure of our English friends (Churchill must be rolling over in his grave)). Cosmopolitan Canada will soon suffer the fate of it's European brethren. Thank God and the electorate for the re-election of John Howard and G.W. Bush. Perhaps now we can stem the Muslim menace at our own gates, and maybe even begin to roll it back. Perhaps, too, a way can be found to bring today's Muslims to a more enlightened and more tolerant view of the European Dhimmi community since Sharia will soon rule those lands.

Posted by: Jeff M (Denver) at December 13, 2004 at 02:12 AM

I had posted the article on Powerline the other day. Australia and Israel are the only two countries outside of the USA, that I give a damn about. Europe and Canada has committed suicide.

Posted by: Joel at December 13, 2004 at 02:44 AM

PW: I understand what you mean, but I still say the situation isn't that hopeless. For one thing, the governments of European countries aren't totalitarian any more. True, they seem to be bogged down in bureaucratic inertia and to be infested with appeasers when it comes to this immigrant problem, but there are solutions short of fleeing. And read what HA said -- the ones leaving are the lucky ones; how about those who can't afford to move out of the country?

Believe me I sympathize with people who want to leave unpleasant circumstances for a better life elsewhere. I grew up in Miami, which went through a period of really bad crime and general unpleasantness in the 80s, in part because of a surge of immigration from Castro sending all his criminals here during the Mariel boatlift. (They weren't all criminals, but Castro took advantage of the situation.) I used to dream of leaving, not because I couldn't stand Cubans, but because I was afraid of getting killed. But I couldn't afford to.

Posted by: Andrea Harris at December 13, 2004 at 03:10 AM

Hi HA,

We Dutch bring our moral superiority wherever we go. It's part of our national identity ;-).

Pete

Posted by: Pete at December 13, 2004 at 05:50 AM

If one checks the 2000 census date there was indeed a huge outflow of native born middle and upper middle strata well-educated 25-50 year old people from California between the 1990 and 2000 censuses. A high proportion of the leavers were households with children and earned well above average incomes. The departees according to the Los Angeles Times in a series of articles of a couple of years ago were replaced numbers wise by new arrivals who were less educated,poorer, and mostly immigrants.
If you do not believe that there has been an a massive exit from California simply visit any Los Angeles County city and open ones eyes.The change in the etnicities of the population is mind bogling. Such a sudden demographic change is now it appears underway in many parts of Europe.
I personally live in one of the few small enclaves of the Los Angeles County still populated by a majority of native speakers of English and even its population is undergoing a swift demographic shift to third world origin residents despite soaring house prices. Though I live in a neighborhood of million dollar plus homes a walk around the block makes me wonder if I reside in Babel or the USA. Presaging the future is the fact the native English speakers are largely 55 plus while the school age kids are largely non-English speaking.
If one as a poster above uses rising house to decide on demographic shifts my neighborhood should still be populated by American -born residents and that the neighborhood elemantary school she not have an enrollment that is more than 50% non-English speaking at home.
The new arrivals solve the housing price as I see it in middle and upper middle class areas simply by living thicker and deeper.
Southern California may not be losing population but it is definitely seeing its taxpaying higher income groups of all ethnicities exit the area to escape high taxes, the teeming sensation in the neighborhood, and rising house prices.
The post 2000 exit of the economically active native born high earning taxpaying 25-50 year old cohorts goes a long way toward explaining the empty state, county , and municipal treasuries innCalifornia and the states chronic budget deficit covered by more borrowing and letting the infrastructure continue to deteriorate.
Despite the empty public treasuries in the state Los Angeles County school districts are swamped by the the children of high birth rate immigrants, at least one financially troubled hospital emergency room closure is announced weekly, and my property tax bill that under Prop. 13 limits is not to increase more than 2% annually leaped by 10% this year helping speed the departure of this native Californian out of America's multi-cultural paradise. I will be more than willing to cede the neighborhood to the borqua shrouded non-employed ladies who walk a few steps behind their menfolk and the illegal gardeners, housepainters, and handymen who cover my doorsteps daily with Kinko printed leaflets offering to work cheap in order to afford a comfortable retirement in a low tax state.
If you one does not believe people are leaving California I would suggest taking a poll of residents in the vast new housing developments in Henderson, The Lakes, and Sparks, Nevada; Tempe, Mesa, or Havasu City in Arizona, and in Salt Lake City, St. George,or Cedar City, Utah asking the residents of those exurban explosions where they lived previously. I'd bet most will answer California.

Posted by: Paul at December 13, 2004 at 08:20 AM

I gotta go with Tuttle. I saw no mention of the Holocaust or anything similar in his post. Just a group of people who saw the government for the way it was, where it was going, and knowing they had no way of changing that either peacefully or violently. So they left.

I think the next country on that list will be Canada.

Posted by: Jay at December 13, 2004 at 10:56 AM

Andrea Harris,

Castro sending all his criminals here during the Mariel boatlift.

I guess Fidel didn't get the memo. Criminals are sent to Australia where they belong! America gets the huddled masses and wretched refuse.

Posted by: HA at December 14, 2004 at 12:24 PM

Pete,

We Dutch bring our moral superiority wherever we go.

Nothing like a little moral superiority to go with the whores and hash!

Posted by: HA at December 14, 2004 at 12:29 PM

It's pretty obvious the Euro elites don't care what happens to their countries in thirty years time, as long as they can collect on their unfunded, unfundable pensions first. This embezzlement racket is much bigger than the UN's Oil for Kickbacks scam. I am still amazed that Sept 11 didn't wake up the Euros to the islamic threat. The only possible way to stop the rot is to precipitate a crisis at home, and that will only happen if the most heavily gouged taxpayers leave. Maybe then the native population will get re-armed and start giving muslims a taste of their own medicine. If that doesn't work, and Europeans continue on their spineless, appeasing way, at least the collapse of Europe will happen faster and the baby boomers who caused the problems will be denied their share of the loot.

Posted by: Clem Snide at December 14, 2004 at 09:10 PM

Just what we need-a bunch of fucking cloggies.
The streets will be choked with bicycles and we will be all be choked by the marijuana fumes from dutch owned cafes.
I don't think that johnny howard will accept this.
After all, our drug laws mirror the USA,these euros are drug smoking degenerates.

Posted by: marklatham at December 15, 2004 at 09:24 PM