Tim Blair

Bit of a finger in the dyke at this stage, and I don't mean a digital examination of Margo Kingston either.

Yeah, it may be too little, too late. But I am glad to see their eyes open, finally. They may well set the stage for the rest of Europe.

One can hope.

The winning energy is with the Imans.

Leave the bicycles behind this time, okay?

My personal experience about the Dutch has been that they're slightly more nuts (both "good" and "bad" kind of nuts, depending on the person) and unpredictable than the average European, which just might provide enough internal impetus for them to follow through on the rightful anger the nation feels right now. Still, I'm afraid this will probably all blow over and we'll be back to business as usual before the year is over...

In the spirit of Dean Murphy I'd just like to note that 'acts of God' in the form of his most mysterious and magical manefestation, the sectarian rioter and arsonist, have long been a popular, if deplorable, form of political discourse in the European mainland between warring sects.

I'm just sayin' is all. I strongly and indignantly resent any implication that I might be suggesting some form of indefensable criminal activity against Muslim property or houses of worship, so don't even go there.

Hey this is fun!

having been married to a dutch woman, now a good friend, here's my tuppenceworth.

the dutch are the most wonderful, family minded liberal tolerant people i have ever met.

Never ever f**k with them. Slow to anger, they are utterly determined and utterly ruthless when they have to be, this is how they defeated the Spanish, built an empire, and taught the world about commerce.

I hope Theo van Gogh's assasination will be the straw that breaks the Islamofascists back. When asked if he was worried about being killed he replied, "No one would want to kill the village idiot would they?".He was wrong.

Bollocks. Your judging national character by what their ancestors did? Howabout "The Australians are a wonderful, family-minded liberal, tolerant people but never let one into your house because as soon as you turn your back he'll revert to the ways of his convict ancestors and steal your pig."

PW is right, the Dutch strike me as a typical post-modern urban western society. There'll be a few flashes of public anger, a few of the worst nuts will be deported, the pollies will draft a little legislation and declare 'problem solved', then the whole thing will die down untill the next outrage. That's what'd happen here.

Atrocities sadly happen to both sides (jumping to conclusions, I admit).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3997943.stm

I just hope the Dutch can enforce their laws against both sets of bigots asap.

PYM and THEO are heroes. Of their horrible slaughter "wake up" the dutch then they will not have died in vain.
I fear that they are the first in a long list.
Bravo to the Dutch people for not following the dhimmified reaction of other Europeans!
Those who have studied History are well aware that there is no possibility of a multiculturist solution. In 1500 years of history it has never happened, so why should the modern "glorious" western culture be any different to all those before it?

Amos,
I disagree with you. I think the values of our civilization are far more ingrained than we imagine.Post modern crap is a passing fad and I believe it will implode .Have faith.I for one am going to enjoy the show.

Amos, Public schools in Australia are regularly arsoned, usually by delinquent kids. Most of Pennant Hills High burnt to the ground in 2000, with barely a mention in the press.

A couple of years ago an Islamic shool in western Sydney had some windows broken, no witnesses, but the ABC played it for 2 days on their news as an anti-muslim attack. I think it's just a left-wing pavlovian reaction to always play the race card.

Never ever f**k with them. Slow to anger, they are utterly determined and utterly ruthless when they have to be, this is how they defeated the Spanish, built an empire, and taught the world about commerce.

Very true. If the line has been crossed, Islamists in the Netherlands can expect the same treatment as the Nazi Sympathizers after World War II.

http://www.zachtei.nl/

The war has come to Holland, whether they want it or not

If you want to begin to learn, check out:

1. Race, Evolution & Behavior by J.P. Rushton, a DSc professor at Western Ontario

2. IQ and the Wealth of Nations by R. Lynn and T. Vanhanen. The former a Cambridge expert on dysgenics. The latter a noted academic who is also the father of the Finnish PM. Consequently, this book got his son into warm water.

This is biological.

Here in Australia , during the eighties and nineties, while we were all drinking beer and going to the beach. Al Grassby and all his Labor loons were quietly bringing in their Islamic mates to bolster their votes.
All of a sudden there are Mosques everywhere and we have the same problems as the other western countries.
If there are 700 thousand muslims in Australia and they are having upto 10 kids per family it won't take long before my beautiful country is stuffed. Its time do get serious with these barbarians. Piss em off..

It looks like van Gogh's killer was a member of a terrorist cell:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/041110/2/ro3t.html

..the Arab-European League accused the Dutch immigration minister of giving a "Hitler speech" at a rally in protest at van Gogh's murder..

For a culture that is still resentful about being kicked out of Spain a half-millennium ago, the Islamists are remarkably poor on twentieth century history.

Few countries suffered as much as the Dutch under Nazi occupation. Audrey Hepburn's slim figure was a living testament to the tens of thousands that died of starvation in the winter of 1944, after the Germans cut off all supplies.

The Arab-European League may be about to learn that you don't stuff with the Dutch.

The Dutch are slow to anger - I don't think so.
The Dutch have, for over thirty years, been fed the lets all get along together, noboby is wrong, rubbish. You cannot wipe out such teaching unless there is something like September 11 in Holland. Didn't I just read that the police removed a makeshift memorial to this man because it contained the words 'thow shalt not kill.' The government deemed this to inflamitory. Thow shalt not kill may encorage people to violence!!!!

Davo

With all due respect, these two man were no heroes, the first one, Mr Fortuyn was someone trying to muscle his way into politics by becoming a soapstar not by offering realistic policies to solve the "problems" that a very pampered 10% of the dutch populace were percieving as important. (a lot of wich were being solved at the time by the then current administration, ignored by a hysterical mostly commercial media)

As for Mr van Gogh, I have faced this man in debate and found his arguments to consist of mainly one-liners and "jokes" designed to play well with the afforemntioned pampered 10% but devoid of any realistic argument.

Did these man deserve to be killed for what they were saying?

NO WAY!

Should we come down as hard as we can on the people and organisations who have perpetrated those heinous deeds?

Yes, we did and will do so again.

Should we increase our vigilance towards the cancer of radical Islam and terrorist organisations?

Yes, and we should have done so long ago, but that goes for most countries here in Europe.

But, should we be burning Mosks and Islamic schools as has been going on since the van Gogh murder?

No, the people who perpetrate those deeds should be as ruthlesly prosecuted as the murderers of both those man.

Appologies for the long post.

I've known a lot of Dutch Americans - and woe be it if you ever get them mad. They can be quite difficult, and have seemingly very long memories...

Evert. It is not a matter of who these people were and what they said. It is how they were killed and the reason. I don't like what you said - I will kill you. Did the killer act alone or was he part of a larger group. At least we agree that all crimes should be prosecuted and the guilty punished.

Lets just scapegoat the whole community for the actions of one fundamental lunatic.

If someone in my family was killed by a Scot I'd demand that all people of Scottish descent be dragged out of Australia to stop it happening again.

I agree with evert whoever a couple of posts up. There should be a crackdown on the loons, not the general Islamic community. Anything else just plays into their hands.

And as a side note, Pym wasn't killed by a Muslim.

He was killed by a lunatic animal rights activist

At least George ain`t no pussie. He out there every day knocking off some more Islamic scum.

Dear Andy:

I agree that the criminals should be prosecuted not the muslim population. However, you have to look deeper into the problem. If Islamic leaders in Holland come out and condem the killings of these two and and others in the name of Islam, I would feel a lot better. It is possible based on events in the USA that some of these leaders are preaching death and destruction to the infidels. Those that aren't are just as likely to be killed by Islamic radicals if they speak out. The muslims need to expose the radicals. But I bet they won't.

There are only two absolutes in this world – time and gravity.

No significant collective group has ever moved itself purposefully backwards, intentionally or even semi-intentionally; it goes against time (evolution).

There will never be a new caliphate in Europe.

They may be self-indulgent poseurs, but they feel that is their right and they will not give it up easily.

Incidentally, the proportion of loud-mouthed tossers in Europe is probably not that different to that in Australia or the USA. People are people.

Boring but true?

The worlds most permissive society meets the worlds most repressive religion. Heads will roll.

Davod

Again wit all due respect, but that was exactly what I was saying in my post, the background on the two man i was trying to provide was just an attempt to put their contribution to dutch society in a more realistic perspective, 99% of the Dutch condemn their murders to the fullest ectent possible and want everyone involved brought to to justice, as do I.

Oh and about thet mural you mentioned in one of your previous posts,the press failes to mention that that was spray-painted on the front of some-ones private property and the man in question requested it removed, think of that what you will, but Oh and about thet mural you mentioned in one of your previous posts,the press failes to mention that that was spray-painted on the front of some-ones private property and the man in question requested it removed, think of that what you will, dut i personally consider it to be his perogative.

Just to clarify, are jou the davo from post#11?

Arty:

Very eloquent. Short and to the point.

Dutch chicks are hot!!!

That second paragraph should read: "Oh and about thet mural you mentioned in one of your previous posts,the press failes to mention that that was spray-painted on the front of some-ones private property and the man in question requested it removed, think of that what you will, dut i personally consider it to be his perogative."

Dave on your post #30, I could'nt agree more.

No significant collective group has ever moved itself purposefully backwards, intentionally or even semi-intentionally; it goes against time (evolution).

Off the top of my head, in my my time: The Taliban, theological Iran, socialist Cuba, junta Burma; there are probably more but you get the picture.

Both Pym Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh were murdered by self-righteous zealots - one from the extreme left, the other from the extreme right - who were unable to tolerate any opinion opposed to theirs.

As for the murdering Scot analogy Andy, it is false because no one can help their ancestry, but they can choose their relgion. And Islam is not even a religion: It is a death cult. If you don't believe me, keep an ear bent for the anti-terrorist outrage of the mythical "moderate" muslim. All you will hear is either defeaning silence or some twisted whine about how they are the victims forced to defend themselves against Israel/U.S./capitalism etc.

As for the mosque burning, remember we are the infidel dogs in Islamic eyes, so indulging in a little self-flagellation in order to elicit sympathy (and insurance money) is not beyond them.

Van Gogh's film submission is now available on the internet

Europe has waited too long to fix this problem. Once they realize how extensive the infrastructure has become, how well the Islamists understand their laws and culture, and how easily they can use that understanding to undermine anyone who attempts to fix the problem they will give up. This is the same continent/culture that still embraces Socialism as an economic philosophy. Even after it's been demonstrated to be a bankrupt idea with disastrous economic and eventually cultural consequences. The best we can hope for is the flight of the strong and independent to shores that are more resolved to fight this new strain of Fascism. The problem never would have become this bad if they had the sack to fix it. Adieu E.U., the next time we meet it will be as an invading army and an enslaved population. Third time's the charm?

Romeo

The Taliban advanced their position in Afghanistan (until recently, and from their point of view), whether the bulk of Afghans did is another question. Few would argue that overwhelming outside influences affected this outcome?

However, they seem happy enough to be given another chance, which tells me that they did not intend to get what they got.

There are other cases, but I am sure you get the picture.

Dave,
Your premise is that "no significant collective group has ever moved itself purposefully backwards, intentionally or even semi-intentionally"

I'm pointing out that such groups exist.

Dave: You seem to imply that "significant groups" will have the foresight needed to avoid the trap of the new European Caliphate. I would suggest that your faith is misplaced. Your Taliban example illustrates why I believe your faith is misplaced. Clearly they did not see the threat being posed to them (see also; Fallujah) until it was too late. Mightn't the Dutch (and broader Europe) be waking up to this fact too late as well?

I am a Nederlander who can trace his ancestory to 1326 AD.

When we get riled, suffer the consequences.

I am a Nederlander who can trace his ancestory to 1326 AD.

When we get riled, suffer the consequences.

Romeo/Apologist:

Time moves forward. The Taliban tried and lost in Afghanistan. Will they try again? Probably, but will they ever win? Most likely not. The actual Taliban did not go backwards, like the communists before them they preached one thing but practiced another. If the Afghan population purposefully moved itself to Taliban medievalism then what is the justification for liberating them. It cannot work both ways.

People want a better (more certainty of surviving and breeding etc) future for themselves and their children, a small minority follow a different path. It’s a dead end.

My “faith” is based on several million years of evidence, it is not misplaced.

By the way, it never hurts to keep the French on their toes.

When the words "Thou shalt not kill" painted on the wall which was near the scene of the assassination are sandblasted away by the government because a Muslim cleric felt these words inflamed hatred, I think I,too, would resort to burning down the houses that death built.

PYm fortune's murder was covered up to a large extent by the PC media dutch and foreign eg BBC.
Nu the Killer claimed he did it in sypmathy for the dutch muslim community. I do not know if he was a dutch convert ot Islam.
THe Dutch Liberalism as wonderful as it was, has been totally exploited as well as the dutch ignorance of the History of Islam and its relationships with non islamic communities.
When we look at the eastern christain communities that were eliminated almost to the point of extinction, the remainder kept as dhimmi slaves and heavily taxed and humiliated for the privilage of being able to keep their judeo christian religions, the answer id clear.
there is absolutely no possibility of peaceful coexistence on an equal amongst equal level.
Islam means peace and peace means submission.
Little by little they will nibble away demanding more and more privileges until there is conflict. They will shout racism when such demands are not met and the left will echo those shouts.
And as this goes on, we are throwing away our own religion and morals to satisfy the secular left who have invaded academia, making resistance even more difficult. The lefts rejection of religion and moral codes have resulted in their present day madness and will hand our civilisation ona plate to the caliphate.They have become fifth columnists.
As an atheist, I now realise that Christianity may become our last line of defence!!

Wow, a real f*cking martyr for a change. I had almost completely absorbed that "martyr" was only PC shorthand for "savage terrorist."

It is easy to profess the high-minded notion that the Right is condemning an entire religious sect for the actins of a few, but I whole-heartedly disagree with that notion, at least in the case of Islam. The "legitimate" leaders of Islam, throughout the world have yet (since 9/11) to come out in force and publicly denounce the actions of the radicals. I believe they support this effort, either actively or tacitly. I spent a year in Iraq, and while many of the more secular folks enjoy collecting dollars, few if any view westerners in the same light as dogs. I hear the talk EVERYWHERE about the peace-loving, God-fearing Islamists, but I have yet to meet even one. I believe with all of my heart that this global war launched by muslims is what the world of Islam has longed for ages. They want the world, THEIR way, and they want us dead. I have no doubts about this.
Sorry about the rant, this just REALLY pisses me off.

I really should edit my posts before I hit the button... I meant to say, "most veiw westerners in the same light as dogs" OK, I'll shutup now...

Ik ben geen Nederlander - I'm not Dutch - but I've lived there for a bit (making Better Ways To Kill people at Hollandse Signaal Apparaten).

They're a weird mob. Very hereogenous. The majority are of the Kumbaya pursuasion, there's a lot of Indonesians who're Islamic the way many Australians are Christian, and there are few wayyy to the right of even you, Tim. Sort of Colonel Blijmpjes, still pining for the Goed Oud Taags (Good Old Days) back in Batavia. (The Dutch SS are an extinct species - and not missed by anyone).

I suspect the mosque attacks are by football hooligans - they have the same thick-as-two-short-planks violent thuggery there as in much of Europe.

But the recent raid at Den Haag - where some dutch police were killed by hand-grenades - shows that the grown-ups have been woken up, and are doing something about it. No idea if they've got the stamina to see it through to the end. I wouldn't bet against them though.

Dear Evert please explain how a very 'pampered' (the bloody nerve of adding this astounds me) 10% of Dutch society got his party 20% of the seats in parliament... Bugger off with your far left propaganda or stick to facts.

Dear Bob:

Two words: "mediahype" & "protest-vote"

As for spouting far-left propaganda, well that is your vieuw but I consider my politics to be center-right.

Are you by any chance part of that 10%?

J. P. Rushton? He's the guy who measures the circumference of people's skulls to guage how smart they are. He has claimed that black people are less civilized than white people because they have bigger penises.

His ideas are straight out of the Age of Phrenology.

And as a side note, Pym wasn't killed by a Muslim.

He was killed by a lunatic animal rights activist

Who claimed to be acting in defense of Muslim immigrants.

Robert Crawford: He was killed by a lunatic animal rights activist Who claimed to be acting in defense of Muslim immigrants.

I was visiting in Milan when Pym was assassinated. The Euro media reaction seemed unsure if not muted, because Pym had been un-PC outspoken on immigration and assimilation issues. Even though he was gay and fairly libertine on other issues, he was labeled a reactionary for addressing the domestic Islamic question.

From what I understand, his killer did not receive a harsh sentence, even though the murder was committed in suppression a man's free speech and during his candidacy for office. I couldn't understand at the time how this subversion of the democratic process was so tolerated by much of the Euro punditry.

Oh and about thet mural you mentioned in one of your previous posts,the press failes to mention that that was spray-painted on the front of some-ones private property and the man in question requested it removed

It was my understanding that it was the artist's own property. Would you mind pointing to a news source in which this is disputed?

Oh look, a racist. How boring.

"They want the world, THEIR way, and they want us dead. I have no doubts about this."

Neither do people doubt this who haven't been brainwashed by our PC media and Islamist apologists.

I do wish we'd see the moderate, tolerant, peace loving followers of Islam speak up loud and clear in denunciation of what is being done in the name of their religion. They are in the best position to help stop the fanatics.

I think all people of good will should be fruitful and multiply. Fast. Time is on the side of the 11th century.

I'm Dutch, and to be honest, quite pessimistic about all what will happen next. There's a very, very strong liberal/pc mindset here. It's almost a kneejerk reaction! As long as that mindset prevails, we'll never be effective in fighting these murderers.

And our judicial system is probably not fit for the task ahead, either. One example: all information gathered by our secret service is inadmissible in court. Hence, every terrorist that gets arrested before he blows something up or kills someone, walks free, if the arrest was (partially) based on this kind of information! Of course the arrested suspects are released asap, with apologies and a fitting financial compensation for being arrested 'unjustified'.

If we as a people want to get serious about fighting terrorism, we need some serious reforms in our judicial system, and in our mindset as a nation. We must finally say goodbye to the sixties, and enter the 21st century. I'm not sure that will happen now.

Although.. there has been a tense atmosphere today, with the standoff in The Hague. But, Alan, there have been no police officers killed. Yet..

"My “faith” is based on several million years of evidence, it is not misplaced."

If you are referring to human history, I offer you the aborigines- in order to reach Australia, they had to have some extremely sophisticated seafaring technology. They undertook an arduous and technologically complicated journey at a time when most humans were still mucking about with refining the basic spearpoint, reached Australia, and abandoned all of it in favor of being a technologically rudimentary people that did not even fish for the next several thousand years.

If you are referring to biological evolution, I assure you there is nothing stopping any organism from going from the complex to the simple. This process marks the entire evolutionary history of the organisms we call "parasites". Aside from that, over-specialized organisms are always at the greatest risk for extinction- the most robust are generalists with fairly simple lifestyles that can easily adapt when change comes. Humans themselves fit this category, as do the animals that best survive their coming- rats, crows, coyotes, pigs...

"I do wish we'd see the moderate, tolerant, peace loving followers of Islam speak up loud and clear in denunciation of what is being done in the name of their religion. They are in the best position to help stop the fanatics. " C. Josephson

They are in the best position to get their throats cut if they don't keep their mouths shut.

Dear Evert,

No I'm not part of that 20%. And which 'media hype' are you referring to? The one before his death or the one after his death? I do agree his popularity was mostly based on a protest-vote. So I suggest you come out of your high-browed elitist villa infested ghetto and spent some time in investigating what the basis of this protest-vote by 'pampered' people might be.

Sincerely yours,

Bob

No significant collective group has ever moved itself purposefully backwards, intentionally or even semi-intentionally; it goes against time (evolution).

Ever heard of Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge, and Year Zero?

labrat,

the abos walked to australia across the northern land bridge when sea levels were much lower.

One passage in the article caught my eye as follows: "Even the most liberal society is illiberal when it is a question of survival." It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes by the American Historian John Buchanan who said "The further removed we are from want and danger, the more generous our consciences." My liberality went out the window on 9/11. The Dutch, it appears, last week.

"If neo-conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, the Dutch are fast becoming a nation of neo-conservatives."

Since when do Neo-cons advocate stopping illegal immigration and assimilation? It seems like the Bush government has done nothing to stop America becoming upper Mexico.

Anyway, good move.

G.J.Wolfswinkle,
The society created by lefties in Holland sounds ripe for Islamic plucking.I still believe it's never to late to pull back from the abyss.Terrorist acts like the recent assassination will,I think, be sobering and give imperative to whatever change is necessary.Any Government shown to not protect it's citizens will be hammered no matter how the left tries to spin out of it.Bali and the Muslim pack rapes jolted us Australians to the right let's hope Van Gough's assassination will do the same to Holland.
Anyway if worse comes to worst you could follow Spain's example in dealing with the Moor's.

I don't think the Dutch are having a problem with Mexicans.

Sticker I just saw on a passing car:

JESUS LOVES YOU......
Allah wants you dead.

Vinnyboombutts: sorry mate the aborigines could not possibly have walked here via a land bridge. There has never been one connecting the Australian continent to the main land mass of Asia, hence the survival of the marsupials here.

This is covered by Tim Flannery in "The Future Eaters" and in innumerable works on species differentiation across the water gap. Basically, somewhere between 80,000 and 40,000 years ago, there was a group of people who were able to build some form of seagoing craft to cross bodies of water like the Lombok Strait and Wetar Channel. Bearing in mind the absolutely stunning seagoing achievements of the Polynesians off a stone-age technological base, we should not be surprised by this in an archipelagic environment.

People are a damned clever lot! Of course, if you then move from an arhipelagic 'world' to a continental land mass 'world', then you no longer need seagoing craft. No surprise that they abandoned this technology over a time span of somewhere between 80,000 and 40,000 years.

MarkL
Canberra

Actually, your're demonstrating your own ignorance.

There are hundreds of well-controlled scientific studies, including dozens conducted in the last 20 years, that demonstrate conclusively racial differences in brain-size, IQ and behavior. See Ho et al (1989) for example.

You may not like it, but you have to tell the truth.

A lot of nonsense in that article and on the comments here as well (yes, I'm Dutch and left the country after the greens shot Pim Fortuyn). People, the glory days are long gone. More people died in World War II fighting for Hitler on the east front than died in labour camps or as part of the resistance.

It's an utterly socialist country, and socialism doesn't have a back bone. What is Holland? If you equate it to liberalism, you point your finger at the problem, not the solution.

What are they supposed to be doing? Kick out their Maroccan neighbours? Shutdown the Mosques? Forbid Muslim parties? Burn Muslim schools?

As MarkL has already pointed out, Australia hasn't been connected to any northern landmass in hundreds of millions of years. The last continent it was attached to was Antarctica.

"No surprise that they abandoned this technology over a time span of somewhere between 80,000 and 40,000 years."

It still seems surprising in that if I have my information right (and I might not, I'm working off memory at the moment), they had not only abandoned long-range seagoing technology but that needed for basic coastal fishing at the time Europeans arrived. Settling on a large landmass seems logical, simply abandoning such a rich food source doesn't.

"There are hundreds of well-controlled scientific studies, including dozens conducted in the last 20 years, that demonstrate conclusively racial differences in brain-size, IQ and behavior. See Ho et al (1989) for example."

You're going to have to provide a more complete cite than that, please. I'll cheerily look at the article to see if it's an exception to the sloppy studies I've seen on race and IQ/behavior, but I need more to go on than "Ho in 1989."

For one thing, most of these studies seem to completely ignore thay in a lot of cases race is a cultural phenomenon but not a biological one. After a thousand years of widespread migration, conquest, and trade, most human populations are very heavily mongrelized. American blacks, for example, represent several different African tribal groups (which, between them, are more genetically distinct from one another than Caucasians are from Asians), northern Europeans, Native American groups, and Arab groups. In order to have a distinct enough population to have any basis for basing arguments about IQ and behavior, you need strongly distinct genetic groups. Aside from a few populations left who have very strict cultural rules about marriage or have been extremely isolated up to now, there aren't any. Just because a group looks similar on a few dominant features doesn't mean they have the kind of genetic homogeneity you need to make this kind of theory credible.

"I do wish we'd see the moderate, tolerant, peace loving followers of Islam speak up loud and clear in denunciation of what is being done in the name of their religion. They are in the best position to help stop the fanatics."

The leaders of most (all?) popular moslim organisations spoke out against the murder. There's been a protest with loads of muslims against the murder.

Frank Quist: when? where? Are there links on the internet? Did you read this somewhere or see it on tv or in your neighborhood? Were these protests against evil Muslim terrorists or general protests at all the mean and unfair things people are saying about Muslims because Muslims just don't seem to be saying a whole lot against evil Muslim terrorists.

[Buh-bye, pimplesqueeze. The Management.]

[Good-night, little trollfart. The Management.]

I actually agreed with some of what Pym said. I know as a centre-leftie that may come as a surprise.

As for the Scots analogy, I agree it was shoddy. I should have siad the IRA and get rid of all Catholics.

Also, numerous Muslim leaders have spoken out against these atrocities. It's just that this does not conform to the medias view of Muslims so they are often not reported.

Face it, people are more likely to read about how bad those extremists are then a fellow Muslim condemming them. Murder and bloodshed sell, peace doesn't.

Sherm Hayden: I assume you are being sarcastic, but just in case you are serious -

If Muslims want to 'live life their way' - although I would hardly call the bigoted, ignorant existance of most Muslims 'life' - the answer is startlingly simple.

Muslims are free to return anytime they wish to whatever Islamic country they came from.
Then they will be free to live life their way - free to mutilate and oppress their females, behead people who dont agree with them, and generally live out their fantasy that the rest of the world is to blame for their self-inflicted problems.

I would welcome it if the whole Muslim population of the western world could be exchanged for Jews - at least they are intelligent people who contribute to their countries (research the staggering number of Jewish scientists and their discoveries, from which we all benefit).

Muslims contribute nothing except social unrest, endless whining and demands for special treatment, and constant attempts to drag everyone else back to the 7th century.

The reason they stay in the western world, where they are disliked and distrusted (with good reason), is the generous welfare benefits available. How many Jews are on welfare? Very few. How many Muslims are on welfare, or are illegals? Too many to count.

And the Dutch are 'angry' because their once peaceful and prosperous country has been trashed by these barbarians they were foolish enough to welcome.
The welcome mat has been removed, I feel and hope.

"Sherm Hayden's" post has been deleted.

Andy
'Also, numerous Muslim leaders have spoken out against these atrocities. It's just that this does not conform to the medias view of Muslims so they are often not reported.'

Are you saying that the western press do not report this because by doing so they would be confirming that there is much wrong with Islam and that would appear racist?

des great post! if only!
Muslims contribute nothing except social unrest, endless whining and demands for special treatment, and constant attempts to drag everyone else back to the 7th century.

- and the genocide of some ten million worldwide in the last fifty or so years.

No, they do not report it in a major way because it does not conform to stereotypes.

Gaza said: "having been married to a dutch woman, now a good friend, here's my tuppenceworth.

the dutch are the most wonderful, family minded liberal tolerant people i have ever met.

Never ever f**k with them. Slow to anger, they are utterly determined and utterly ruthless when they have to be, this is how they defeated the Spanish, built an empire, and taught the world about commerce."

The Dutch remind me of Israelis (they even have similiar accents)

...and people in Australia complain about minorities!

Europa Powerpoint Presentation – ohne bullet points (& metaphorical consistency):

Civilisation - thin veneer at best, even in the West (West being the best)
Inner beast relentless but caged, for now
Cage two sides (inside, outside) – which side the beast?
Cage maintenance neglected (esp. 3rdW immigration)
Cage now rusty (esp. due resources diverted to ‘diversity’ and immigrunt maintenance)
Straw v. camel’s back – Theo van Gogh?
Straw v. camel’s back? – if not Theo, getting warm
If no adjustment what next?
Seig heil! – déjà vu – O fucking hell we didn’t spot that. Wunderbar!
Pity we didn’t pay attention
Too fucking late now squire!
Beast unleashed
*Silver lining – no more islam

Chorus: Always look on the bright side of life, di-dum…

Romeo:

"Amos, Public schools in Australia are regularly arsoned, usually by delinquent kids. Most of Pennant Hills High burnt to the ground in 2000, with barely a mention in the press."

I was doing the HSC there in 2001, it happened just after the Queens Birthday holiday that year and two days after I had represented the school as 'Cuba' at the Sydney model UN. Two years prior to the unsolved fire we had proto-Jihadi Izhar Ul-Haque attending our school, COINCIDENCE?!?!

I'd like to see the little bastard's house crushed with a 60 ton armoured bulldozer and hope the Dutch start to stick up for themselves ASAP. However I must warn everyone against being racist towards the Muslims in question even if you've got a major problem with them.

Moroccans (or the Almohads as they were known back then) were at one point during the Middle Ages the most technologically sophisticated people on earth with the possible exception of China. Iraqis (former Sumerians) also deserve a mention for inventing civilization itself.

On the subject of racism, I beleive the Dutch are not only likely to assert the authority of their culture but go way too far. Lets not forget that the Dutch managed to spawn most of South Africa's white minority.

Come off it, Tim, nothing has changed. It's not like the Van Gogh murder is something out of the blue. The whole world has known about the nature of islam for centuries, and has been unable to ignore it for decades now, yet Europe still believes in appeasement, collaboration & socialism. If the Dutch government itself had ordered the bulldozing of mosques and islamic schools, and started deporting imams who were Dutch citizens if they so much as complained about infidels, then this would be a sign of progress. Instead the government will probably prosecute Dutch citizens trying to defend their civilisation and enlightenment values against totalitarianism. This reaction will peter out, and muslims will continue to outpopulate the natives. And you can bet that the muslims won't show 10% of the tolerance that the Dutch arsonists are showing once their numbers are high enough.

Oh those poor Moslems! Now even the Dutch are persecuting them! What with the Hindus in Kashmir, Catholics in Mindanou, Brats in Beslan, Buddhist in Southern Thailand, every other race in south-western Sydney, and of course the Jeeeews in the Middle East, when will people realise it's not Moslems, it's everyone else!!!

The Dutch slow to anger? Please! They were very obedient towards their Nazi masters during the occupation.

The most striking and under-reported thing about Van Gogh is that he was a 47 year old childless bachelor. 10 Muslim children were probably born that day in Amsterdam to replace him. You do the math.

Holland is doomed. In a generation or two all Dutch women will be wearing veils.

CLEM

..The whole world has known about the nature of islam for centuries....
Did you get any of this in your school history lessons?
I have never met any westerner who did.
The only history"lessons" i remember were the horrors committed by the bloodthirsty Crusaders and our guilt for the "outrages"!
thirty years later, i managed to get hold of books by Bernard Lewis and Bat ye'or to enlighten me to the true nature of the "religion of peace".
If we had all done this thirty years ago, we would have been able to understand what unlimited Islamic Immigration would ultimately mean to western civilisation.

I still can't believe an 'Artist-type' like Van Gogh broke so dramatically with the absolutely mindless dogma of politcal correctness to make the documentary he did...Good on him!
We would never see the likes of him amongst Australia's sickenly contrived and predictable Arts Community. Broadminded and advant-garde are literally the last thing they are, and sadly, we are not likely to see his recent work on either of our PC public broadcasters either.
Moslems are not the only ones to consider Van Gogh's documentary blasphemous, political correctness is a crazy religion too, and its disciples also attempt to substitute an unpalatable reality for a more comfortable and convenient alternative.

Mark L it is suggested that Australlia was connected to South America 180 million years ago- fauna has been identified living in Australia that have only been discovered recently in fossilised amber found in South America and seen on David Attenborough programme last Saturday

Last night on SBS French Production TV on banning the veil/hijib in schools.
One little innocent, who wants to study medicine, but only to treat Muslim woman and children. She affirmed that she owed her loyalty to Islam first, even though French born of Algerian parents.
The first generation of refugees mostly Algerian and Morroccan kept a low profile but their offspring want to reconnect with their 'roots' in language and culture and being French born did not make them loyal to their country of birth. They all stated that they should not be forced to assimmilate and that the majority should conform to their minority view. The young lass Manal, 'studied' Islam and saw herself'liberated' by her faith and chose to wear the veil. They worried me with their fervour and determination to have their way.Is going to worsen any day soon as they feel they are the persecuted.

Rose
Yes the SBS doco was surprising indeed. I expected a long expose of the "persecution' of french Muslims. To give SBS credit, ir was not about that.
What came throught was the sheer determination of these young (and intelligent) women to take all that is useful from French education and assimilate it into an Islamic world. A kind of booty due to Islam?
A world where there is no room for outsiders.
One realises that assimilation is blasphemy to these women and multiculturism a foolish stupidity invented by the West.
frightening indeed!

I have this overwhelming urge to tell Dutch liberals "WE TOLD YOU SO."

"The most striking and under-reported thing about Van Gogh is that he was a 47 year old childless bachelor."

My God!! How easy it is to just shout things you have heard somewhere, without checking. Van Gogh actually had a son. Not childless.

Pim Fortuyn was not murdered by a Eco-nut because he was afraid of what Pim might do to Muslims but because Fortuyn did not have much patience with Eco-warriers and felt they were stopping economic growth.

Someone else claimed policemen were killed in a terrorraid in The Hague. Not true. A terrorraid? Come on. They went to arrest 2 men. That is not a raid. They threw a hand grenade. Policemen were WOUNDED, not dead.

Why is it that any debate that is about 'foreigners' is never based on facts but always on emotions? Somehow when it is about Muslims, there seems to be no need to get your facts straight.

Nice to see that the most vocal people here are people who have nothing to do with Dutch society but just decide to spew out their opinions and randomly apply them to all social unrest in the world. No opportunity missed to point out how depraved all Muslims are.....

Quite sad.

Marieke,

If I'm wrong about Van Gogh's childless nature, then I apologize. In all of the stories that I read about Van Gogh, none mentioned any living relatives except his mother. (Still my basic point remains, your Muslim neighbors will be in the majority in a generation or two. Better get fitted with a burka, you would not want to suffer a stoning in your quaint Amsterdam neighorhood.)

Still we would not have to speculate if the Dutch government and press did not try to cover-up the details of his murder. Why is it that most of the relevant coverage of Van Gogh's murder is done by non-Dutch sources?

Pat, I'm with Marieke on this one. The fact that Theo did have a child is public knowledge in The Netherlands. That child was the only thing that could, just maybe, get him off smoking, and that would have been a remarkable feat :-)

You seem to think that the Dutch government and the media are trying to cover up. Don't know where you got that idea, but that's not how it feels from the inside. We've been bombarded with information. One of our ministers even read out loud the letter the murderer pinned on Theo's body, because he felt the public had a right to know what the killers' motives were.

As I said before, I don't think 'the iron has entered our souls'just yest, but it's not as bad as you seem to think. Taboos are falling rapidly, and that's good.

His child also got him off the booze and coke, according to Youri Albrechts, his friend. His doctor had said he would not be able to attend his son's 20th birthday if he continued living like that, so he quit. There should be much sadness for how his son will still have to celebrate that birthday without his father now.

In reading the blogosphere on the murder I indeed see lots of wrong facts on the mood here.

I take issue with these ones, being a dutch citizen who has been able to feel the mood and read the media to a certain extent:

1. That our "PC media" covered it up, a meme which I've seen at several places. The media were quick to conclude the killer was a muslim, and they broadcasted almost all day nonstop on the murder, with lots of coverage the days after. The debate about van Gogh in the parliament was broadcast live. The most leftwing paper De Volkskrant said Muslims "will have to accept that, in a democracy, religion, too, is open to criticism - this applies to Islam no less than to Christianity". http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3980371.stm

2. That the politicians are going on with their usual business and don't care. In the aforementioned live broadcast we saw how about every MP, right and left, were in hawk mode. The greens, usually the most dovish of all, were in full attack mode against the government.

3. A mural with 'Thou shalt not kill' was removed by the Rotterdam police, and several places (tv and amsterdam musea) who were planning to broadcast Submission after the murder have since decided not to. Both actions have been spun as a "Told you so!" event about how much the socialist dutch are all terribly doomed to hell. In fact the removal of the mural was a single event, and can't really be used to prove how doomed we are. Dutch society is not asleep, and they are ready for some butt kicking.

How tolerant is this?

Some 40 per cent of people in the Netherlands believe that Muslims should no longer be welcomed in their country, according to a poll.

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=96193&Sn=WORL&IssueID=27235

Several broadcasts were shut down. Pity, but understandable. The mood is dire here, and if mosques and churches are burning it might not be the best idea to broadcast it again, just days after the murder. It's a safety issue.

Andrea Harris, sorry for my late reply. Here are some links on muslims protesting the murder.

Small protest (Via Harry's place):

About 60 young Dutch Muslims wearing orange T-shirts reading "We won't put up with extremism any more" cycled through Amsterdam stopping at mosques to protest against the murder.

They then joined a Dutch-Moroccan rally of several hundred in a park near the street where Van Gogh was killed.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=618025§ion=news

The popular dutch muslim rapper Ali B - as youthful maroccan rapper a role model for youth and listened to by both muslims and non-muslims alike - on the murder:

We have to say 'No' really hard. After that we can discuss how far we can go in insulting eachother (He has also said "..you haven't got a tongue for nothing.")

http://www.nrc.nl/scholieren/artikel/1099893949092.html

Here's Amsterdam's muslim Vice-Mayor on things:
http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/04/000410.html#reacties

There have been more muslim protests (these aren't rather.. big, to say the least) but I have been unable to find english or dutch links on them so far. It's very hard to find the stuff back that I see/hear in the dutch media.