Tim Blair

I can't see how this gushing enthusiasm for Garrett is anything other than a massive blunder for the ALP. His fame is unlikely to attract anyone except like-minded leftoids who already vote for the ALP. He is however very likely to come out with some giant gaffe, accidentally contradict party policy, or refuse to toe the party line on some hot-button issue. Possibly all three at once.

I'm no labour voter, though when you consider people like Dom Sullivan and Michael Daley have been educated within the electorate, live within the electorate,have served the local area and the party over a number of years, that they deserve much, much better.

Imagine being a local lad, joining the party with a dream of representing your local area to be superseded by a wealthy has-been singer. So much for the 'people's party' to say nothing of treating the local electorate with utter contempt.

And by the way, Kingsford-Smith is in the heart of South Sydney territory. These 'rabbitohs' do like football and pubs.The irony being that many of them are the sort of people that Labour proports to represent. They had better get used to Chardonnay.

I am yet to see whats the benefit for the ALP, not that I care but hes going to a safe seat and I'm not sure that he'll fit into the caucus scene, he doesn't have a power base.

It just seems as if Latham has fucked up and wants to big note to his mates that he knows Garrett.

I can smell a Kernot coming on!

I am yet to see whats the benefit for the ALP, not that I care but hes going to a safe seat and I'm not sure that he'll fit into the caucus scene, he doesn't have a power base.

It just seems as if Latham has fucked up and wants to big note to his mates that he knows Garrett.

I can smell a Kernot coming on!

But -- Tim, he's a kewl rock star! That's what counts. Getting the kewlness vote. Never mind he's a rockstar from the wayback eighties and today's kids probably don't even know who he is (or care, anyway, who their dads used to listen to) -- the aging Oiler contingent will be all thrilled among their ownselves that their hero will finally be in a position of power.

Will he have a whinge on election night if the result gets too close for comfort? Not that it has happened before.....

Johnno Johnson is a great man of the old ALP and has forgotten more about politics than Latham will ever know. His advice to the Opposition Leader was shrewd and old-world smart. Naturally, it will be ignored.

Labor's private polling must be telling Latham something worrying about the younger demographic for his party to be trying on a stunt like this.

Keep jabbing away with these brilliant initiatives Mark; keep up the barrage of ol' one-twos on the nerdy, conservative PM and his party. Keep hammering away champ! Rope. A. Dope.

*****

Until now a strenuously guarded secret, Latham and Garrett - together as the 'Pirate Moonbats' - have already recorded the party's official 2004 election jingle. It was leaked to me by a friend within the Labor Party.

Turn up the volume!!

He might be a bit weird, but at least he isn't corrupt like Liberal appointee Flint (anti-republican, possibly a "queen" himself with that lisp).

What kind of Australian doesn't want us to be a republic? I forgot, Howard and his old school (literally) buddy Flint.

And now not only are we sold out to the queen, we have a new emperor with the US... which while a healthy relationship is ok .... bowing down and having military bases here... so Americans can rape and abduct like they have near their bases in Japan is just a disgrace.

Don't farm out the military to private contractors or other nations. It's the same as gun control. Saying I don't need a weapon and I can trust the policeman down the street. Howard is weak on defence. He only likes to lock up little children behind barbed wire, while the intelligence services ignore the Bali warnings the US gave them (funny the US knew, and we didn't and it's in our own backyard).

Disgrace. Howard isn't a patriot, neither is Flint.

At least this guy loves australia even if he is misguided on some things.

LOL!@ Kernel Failure.

At least this guy loves australia...

From :

"[Australia] belongs to them. Lets give it back!"

-- Peter Garrett & Midnight Oil

Thankfully, Garrett wasn't around to serve on the Kokoda Trail.

From: 'Beds are Burning'.

Kernel Failure: Blah Blah Blah Blah typical trollish misdirection...

*Yawn*

Are you are saying that wanting to pay the indigenous australians for their land/give what isn't being used back is somehow not possible while being a patriot?

You either believe in property rights and capitalism, or you don't. They had property rights and we took it without paying them anything. In the world of capitalism and property that's called "stealing". I think you can be a true blue aussie, support australia without having to condone government instigated stealing of property. Government has no place taking property of private individuals. To say government is able to reappropriate land without due compensation is pretty much to condone communism.

Are you are saying that wanting to pay the indigenous australians for their land/give what isn't being used back is somehow not possible while being a patriot?

You either believe in property rights and capitalism, or you don't. They had property rights and we took it without paying them anything. In the world of capitalism and property that's called "stealing". I think you can be a true blue aussie, support australia without having to condone government instigated stealing of property. Government has no place taking property of private individuals. To say government is able to reappropriate land without due compensation is pretty much to condone communism.

Typical Queentin George... bah bah bah ...no point.

Quentin George, I have valid points there. All you have is an unspecified disagreement. Either have the balls to elaborate or don't bother ok?

Crossing the floor leads to expulsion in the ALP, unlike the evil Liberals. I can't wait for Garrett to try and cross the floor after being shafted on some enviromental issue.

Valid points? Let's see...

What kind of Australian doesn't want us to be a republic? I forgot, Howard and his old school (literally) buddy Flint.

And, according to the referendum we had on the issue, most Australians didn't want a republic (or at least the one offered) either.

I personally couldn't give a rat's arse if we become a republic or not. Its not important to me. And I know a lot of people who think the same thing.

And now not only are we sold out to the queen, we have a new emperor with the US... which while a healthy relationship is ok .... bowing down and having military bases here... so Americans can rape and abduct like they have near their bases in Japan is just a disgrace.

Yes, I'm sure as soon as we have an American base, no girl will be able to walk the streets at night without being raped!

Idiot.

You either believe in property rights and capitalism, or you don't. They had property rights and we took it without paying them anything. In the world of capitalism and property that's called "stealing". I think you can be a true blue aussie, support australia without having to condone government instigated stealing of property. Government has no place taking property of private individuals. To say government is able to reappropriate land without due compensation is pretty much to condone communism.

Is that exactly fair to the people who legally own such land now? Name one living Aboriginal who has had their land stolen.

See? You can't.

And please, there was no such thing as "property rights" in Aboriginal culture. That concept only arrived in Australia post-1788.

..what kind of Australian doesn't want us to be a republic?...

Those who don't want to see a self-appointed elite (who can barely disguise their contempt for mainstream Australia) entrench themselves deeper, at our expense?

Which reminds me...Garrett.....

Oh, and just to end the matter.

All of the founding fathers of Australia: Henry Parkes, Alfred Deakin, Edmund Barton - none of them saw republicanism as being compulsory for nationhood. Were they not patriots?

But why are you arguing this, Kernel Dipstick? The topic for discussion was Peter Garret.

"I personally couldn't give a rat's arse if we become a republic or not."

says it all, I feel sorry for you mate.

"Yes, I'm sure as soon as we have an American base, no girl will be able to walk the streets at night without being raped!"

I never said it would happen to all, just to some. Mark my words, and there will be other bad stuff too. And why didn't you engage my argument that we should shore up our own forces first rather than relying on imported troops?

"Name one living Aboriginal who has had their land stolen."

So there is a statute of limitations on these crimes all of a sudden? If you killed my parents and took over their house... I can't kick your arse out of there?

"Is that exactly fair to the people who legally own such land now?"

Notice how I phrased it? I phrased it in compensation and unused land. Furthermore, even if we did take land from people who have it now, there would be compensation for that too. But I never suggested that. Idiot.

"no such thing as 'property rights' in Aboriginal culture. That concept only arrived in Australia post-1788."

I would love to have a time-machine right now, we could go back to 1600 and meet some Aboriginals and I'll watch as you go take all their gear. Asides from you cowering and wetting yourself, even if you did pluck up the courage to take the dare they would kick your ass for taking their stuff.

You are putting words in my mouth, I never said that current australians should have their land taken from them. Re: american bases, I never said "no girl" would be safe, I said it was a bad idea (and used the example of americans raping locals in Japan to illustrate how bad it can be). And you didn't even engage the argument about australia standing on it's own two feet on defence. In fact, you said you didn't even want a republic at ALL!

you are a joke mate. you are the troll. You don't even back your arguments up. Typical of spineless monarchists who support theft and not having a military.

..he only likes to lock up little children behind barbed wire...

That's a lie, Kernel. Condoning illegal immigration is murder. You and your kind have blood on your hands.

Kernel:

You're referring, of course, to the law founded upon the Mabo and Wik decisions - which, in turn, were found by the High Court to be the just corollaries of what was found to have been a specious application of terra nullius. Tim's post is about Peter Garrett running for Parliament.

However, yes, a patriot can and should believe what he wants to believe within a democratic polity. This includes a right to believe Aborigines should be compensated for the loss of land and sea rights, where such rights have not been extinguished through the granting of leigimate and irreversible freehold title.

Garrett may believe and be politically actuated by this. Anyone may be. The former rock singer is being criticised for these reasons:

* he is a carpetbagger with no local 'Dreaming' for the seat he intends running for;
* he has been a famous advocate of 'people power' who now looks to be taking advantage of his celebrity to jump the que, over the heads and wishes of local constituents;
* he is a multi-millionaire who has aggrandised himself on a massive scale by criticising the evils of capitalism. This makes him inappropriate on grounds of hypocricy and of labour history.

You've attempted to change the subject - first with a critique of David Flint - and now by way of a discussion of land law, patriotism and crypto-communism. As I started it, by referring to 'Beds are Burning', I've answered you at length. I, however, have returned to the topic.

Two final points: 1) my argument is that the sentiments expressed in 'Beds are Burning' speak of a hypocrite and big-noting blow-hard - not of a man whose patriotism should be questioned; and 2) I am not a monarchist so your Flint/Howard argument is lost on me. Personally, I think Flint is a Grade A tosser.

I would love to have a time-machine right now, we could go back to 1600 and meet some Aboriginals and I'll watch as you go take all their gear. Asides from you cowering and wetting yourself, even if you did pluck up the courage to take the dare they would kick your ass for taking their stuff.

Ah, so now we are on to "gear"? We were referring to land earlier. Why did you change? Perhaps you realised I was correct?

Please explain to me the "gear" that was stolen from Aboriginal people? Boomerangs? Woomeras?

On the other hand, I can be dredge up many instances of stolen sheep, stolen alcohol, stolen food, stolen tools...

you are a joke mate. you are the troll. You don't even back your arguments up. Typical of spineless monarchists who support theft and not having a military.

That's not my point at all. That's just the strawman you built for me. What makes you think I don't want Australia to have a military? Or that I support theft? Or that I'm a monarchist?

..and now not only are we sold out to the queen, we have a new emperor with the US...

How have we 'sold out' to the Queen? PS You're going to need more than Macquarie Uni mantras to carry an argument on this forum.

Kernel Failure, well the name sums the fuckwit up.

Compensate the indigenous Australians, fine, but you find one first. It may come as some unwelcome news for you and all your lefty lying scum, but the current abbo's are not the original inhabitants of Australia you Latham sucking cock-gobbler.

Ask any anthropologist of worth and one who isn't afraid of persecution for speaking the truth and you may actually learn something you moron.

We'll start with the Bradshaws in the Kimberleys. They were never painted by abbo's and they pre-date abbo habitation in Oz by anywhere from 20 to 60,000 years. Unfortunately all evidence pertaining to this has now been rifled by the abbo's so as to ensure land claims are not jeopardised. The Kimberley Bradshaw paintings aren't the only ones but unfortunately after the Bradshaw paintings, any rock art deemed to be "different" to mainstream abbo rock art can now no longer be carbon or radio dated in case it further strenghtens the evidence against abbo's.

There is Mungo Man. Unfortunately for the abbo's it was another bullet in their bullshit theory that they arrived as the first inhabitants. Mungo Man is a totally separate genus of Sapian that an man called Jim Bowler found in 1968 near Lake Mungo and he could prove back then that it wasn't current abbo genus. No one would let him prove it or declare his findings coz the abbo's would have lost native title claim, but hey, fuck the facts 'eh???
There have been numerous findings of the remains of the same genus sapian in Queensland and each skeleton found showed evidence of a violent death.

Examinations of camp sites of this genus, Australoid Negritos pre-date abbo settlement and co-existed until modern times. Further evidence shows battles with current abbo's and it is widely beleived based on historical evidence that the abbo's completed the worlds first true and complete genocide. Although some say the first was the possibl demise of Neanderthal Man by Homo Sapians.

This little excerp is taken from http://www.wise-mens-web.com/mungo/

Maybe one day science will agree and deliver proof of what some Aborigines say, that other races originate from Australia. Are the Aborigines right? If yes, the aboriginal teacher, Eddie, is right when he greets overseas visitors with the words, "White man, welcome back home"!

So to answer you question. Pay who exactly???

This is just typical of monarchist scum like scott and Quentin "http://www.wise-mens-web.com/mungo/" is a REALLY authoritative source right?.... just look down the page to the love remedy and "vibrational healing" stuff. Pure science. Along with the ever so polite use of "abbos".

Quentin betrays his prejudice with his ultra-scientific contribution
"On the other hand, I can be dredge up many instances of stolen sheep, stolen alcohol, stolen food, stolen tools..."

look here you monarchist, theft condoning jokers; the indigenous people of australia had their land taken. I am not endorsing anything radical when I say they should be compensated, I am just saying that theft is wrong, as property is the base unit of capitalism. Just because someone doesn't have a similar legal structure, doesn't mean stealing from them is ok.

quentin and scott reveal have revealed their true nature, and I'm afraid to say it's racist. There is nothing wrong with freedom of association, but the minute you try and slander "abbos" who steal "alcohol" you are just a dirty bigoted maggot. Add to the fact they love britain and the US more than their own country, I say kick the maggots out and let some worthy and entrprenurial boat people in. People who have shown they are willing to do ANYTHING to become part of our society are more likely to pull their weight than these two dole-bludging rednecks.

Oh and by the way, you prattled on about illegal detention. One would think that an adult about to knowingly embark on illegal passage to a nation that has detention for that crime would be the one responsible for their children being detained.

You should also have a close look at the Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission's report on detainees in Australian detention, it's called The Last Resort. It is damning of islamic detainees and their intollerance towards other ethnic/religious detainees.

The Howard government could always do what Norway have and refuse to take any refugees at all. I'm all for that. Fuck the illegal pricks and Peter Garrett with them.

I guess their definition of conservative is "anyone who wont grab their ankles for lefty elitists on demand".

...and I'm afraid to say it's racist...

No. You're not afraid to say that, at all.

You've been calling your adversaries 'monarchists', 'thieves', 'racists' and 'maggots' throughout this thread. You're unable to address the important points of rebuttal which have been put to you on the republic and land rights issues. You've lost the argument, let down your side, and made a fool of yourself into the bargain. Keep it coming though, because we're all enjoying watching you digging yourself deeper into the hole.

Scott, the Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission's report on Australia is damning of Australia. I think a nation should be able to do what it wants in regards to immigration. But I think Howard and people like you and Quentin (it's such a limp name is't it?) are just racist. Racism has no basis in science. You can't look down on islamic refugees for treating other ethnic groups bad and then be a racist yourself. You shoot yourself in the foot there (if you Howard loving bastards hadn't taken away our guns) .

There is the strong way, the scientific way, and the capitalist way. And then there is your coward, double standard, gun-removing, monarchist, ilk who don't work half as hard as these refugees would and don't have the courage to even step into a boat. They are better aussies than you mate, fair go, bravery and hard working people. You are just some scumbag drinking vibrational love potions with your klan buddies and living off welfare handouts. disgrace.

From 'Love's Labor Party's for Sale' (Midnight Oil):

You can rent a life today
Why worry about the real thing
Pay up now and plug in quick
It's easy to co-ordinate
Just credit card the right idea
Why wait around and contemplate
The hidden cost of what you've got
It's better not to

Garrett's trying to plug in real quick and rent himself a new life. Only his potential constituents seem to be saying "it belongs to us - just give it baa-aack."

I am afraid to say it Byron, because maggots like you - who haven't even made an argument yet. Will come in and whinge about how I have been "defeated" and try and support their racist klan hoods without actually backing up what they are saying on their welfare-handout-funded internet connection. Engage the argument or leave, maggot.

I believe that more extreme parts of the Aboriginal industry refers to Australia Day (26 January) as "Invasion Day", so.....

The Poms won - get over it. So therefore any "codified" title was replaced.

PS - Doesn't tall Peter live in the wonderful Tory Southern Highlands near Sutton Forest. And his brother was a lanky backrower with the local rugby club (Bowral Blacks) some 10 - 15 years ago.

Peter Kernot in Kingsford Smith? What a joke. Laurie Brererton was bad enough. Now that he can't get the numbers to retain his seat, he is trying to get Head Office to parachute a D-Grade celebrity on the locals. It just shows why the poor old ALP will keep losing. They are in thrall to factionalism and/or messiah fixes.

Tim was quite right, what Labor needs to do with high profile types like Garret is run them in marginal Tory seats. That is just what the NSW Liberals (ie Conservatives for our foreign readers)have done in all of the marginal seats around Sydney. These 5-10 seats had all been held by the ALP between 1983 and 1996. But after losing 5 elections the Liberals suddnely realised that they had to find good, high profile local candidates and put them into winnable seats. The result was that memebers like Dana Vale in Hughes have taken a seat like Hughes which Labor had won with a 12% margin and truned it into a safe Tory seat in 2 elections. Labor willl not win this seat back in a long time. Jackie Kelly did the same thing in Lindsay, as has Pat Farmer in Macarthur.

But Labor can't find such people because its whole system is based on faction deals, where the person who stands for a seat is more often than not some political hack who has never had any experience in the real world at all. Just like Latham, who has never worked outside politics.

Sinistra delenda est!!

"Yes, I'm sure as soon as we have an American base, no girl will be able to walk the streets at night without being raped!"

I never said it would happen to all, just to some. Mark my words, and there will be other bad stuff too. And why didn't you engage my argument that we should shore up our own forces first rather than relying on imported troops?

Posted by: Kernel Failure at June 8, 2004 at 10:14 PM

OK, I'll take that stupidity on, I've always liked the fish in a barrel scenario.

It isn't a base you dumb shit - its a training facility that will have no permanent US staff.

Happy now? you got to look like an idiot.

Wanna talk about shoring up our forces? the Libs have done a great job and continue to do a great job, particularly when compared to Labor - I was in Kim Beasleys army - funding was SO fu

As an aside Beasley also asked me the stupidest single question of my military career.

..I think a nation should be able to do what it wants in regards to immigration...

We are doing what we want in regards to immigration, Kernel. As we did, on the republic. You've lost on both issues, and you really need to come to terms with your failure. We are conservatives, our hearts are as big as the great outdoors and we're here to help you through that process.

...who don't work half as hard as these refugees would and don't have the courage to even step into a boat...

They're not 'refugees', Kernel. They travel through several countries before arriving in Australia, any one of which is far more compatible with their religion, culture, and values.

DaveACT,

But if in the future americas economy failed for some reason and we had a pityful defence force and then communist china invaded Australia. Would your great grandchildren call it invasion day? Would the chinese say;

"Those Australian's had a difference conception of property they thought people could own property AGAINST the state... this is invalid because it doesn't work in our legal system. Too bad those in the 'australia industry' refer to our liberation of this continent as "invasion day"."

Think about it. We should think properly about reparations of some sort, because every law abiding man and morally upright man should. To state otherwise is some half baked crypto-communism. Property is property, it existed before the state and thus the Aboriginals had it - it is the natural state of man to have possesions. And like I say above it is the core of capitalism. I have yet to see any justification to the contrary.

..we should think properly about reparations of some sort...

No we should not, because those who under your proposal are to be compensated have not lost anything, while those paying the compensation have not taken anything.

That would be unfair.

Harry: What was the question? Are you able to say? I thought the, ahem, oil on Big Kimba was that he was pretty savvy on military stuff?

Just interested.

Harry Tuttle,
Maybe beazly asked you a dumb question, I dunno. He's was a rhodes scholar so he can't be a total moron.
Training facility = lots of americans here. There will be trouble and you know it. As a military man are you saying you want the american's to protect you and do your job? The aussies in iraq are mainly running the airport aren't they? What's all this hide-behind the americans crap.

Byron_the_Aussie, nobody has "lost" the debate continues. If your heart is so big, let the media into those concentration camps if you will. There is no two ways about it, we need more population for economic growth and we are keeping people out of the country. The only basis for it is racism.

And last time I checked, alot of them were refugees. You can't say saddam is evil on the one hand and then deny iraqi refugees (before the invasion). You can't say Iran and North Korea are nightmare hell holes of savagry without allowing refugees in. You can't have it both ways mate.

And as far as I am concerned these people have proven they will work hard for what they want. The perfect capitalist mind-set. Better than scott and quentin by a long strech.

You say the republican issue is "defeated" but all the opinion polls showed that most aussies wanted a republic. It was howard and his cronies and some stupid dickheads who mucked it all up. So you are saying you are against what most australians wanted (even quentin admits it was only the model that failed) and FOR a monarchy from another country? I don't get you people.

Give me the reasons why you think the idea of us being subjects of the queen is better than being free men? Perhaps some of the guys who love the US here can explain why the way the US does it (not slaves to some old lady in europe) is best.

..we need more population for economic growth...

No, we don't.

We need lower taxes, less red, black, and green tape, and a freeing-up of the natural innovative and hard-working qualities of Australians.

..if your heart is so big, let the media into those concentration camps if you will...

They're not 'concentration camps', Kernel, and you shouldn't throw around such an important description so loosely. Those who have suffered in real concentration camps deserve better than your use of the term for mere maudlin theatricality.

Byron,

Read up on what costello had to say on the aging population. And no suprise there's a republican for you aswell.

...you say the republican issue is "defeated" but all the opinion polls showed that most aussies wanted a republic. It was howard and his cronies and some stupid dickheads who mucked it all up...

The 'dickheads' were those on the trendy left who stacked the Convention, and did more damage to their cause as each day passed. Australians have a good grounding in commonsense and they knew in their hearts just what kind of republic the elites would set up; namely, one for themselves.

Andrea --- troll ---- do your thing

please

pretty please

don't make a grown lawyer beg more

Byron,

I have personally spoken to a number of survivours and I have traveled to Poland and walked through Auchwitz, I think I know a little more than you of comparisons. But besides Auchwitz is not the only example. Take the American concentration camps of the Japanese in WWII. At least they understood their economic potential, unlike Howard and co.

Anyway, all these comparisons to WWII are making me tired. Like Howard whinging on at the DDay comemorations. He used his speech on that important day to make a political point. Disgrace. He should have mentioned how today germany has not turned, nor have others, nor has france and numerous other countries fallen to them. There is no comparison to be made between this war and WWII. Howard fancies himself as some sort of Churchill, but I'm afraid he isn't. WWII is much more important than that. Perhaps I should have qualified my concentration camps comment for those who haven't read enough history to know any others have existed.

Whatever Kernel Klink is smoking, I want some.

Hey I don't mind the oils but I don't get my politics from them.

Bit funny that the oils used to rail against capitalism and yet they used to invest their money on the short term money market? Can you have it both ways and not be a hypocrite.

As for the immigration issue, if you'd care to read the UN mandate, it says a refugee is some who seeks refuge in a second country, however for most of the refugees they have transited many countries before they get to Australia therefore they are economic migrants, again I don't have a problem with people wanting a better life for their family BUT TAKE A NUMBER don't claim to be a refugee if you're a plumber from pakistan.

Any way, Kernel Sanders gets me with the "Libs are militarily weak".....hello.....wake up, the ADF in the 80's and 90's was a embarassment
only now are we getting some real capabilities.

Bottomline, Kernel, you've got to mix a bit more water with your medication because you are starting to sound a bit like old Margit!

I have to agree with my learned friend Andrea. The Garrett issue has been totally ignored by the Kernel because he's embarrassed by it. Now we have this ridiculous discourse about rapist Americans and 'concentration camps'.

Garrett was just quoted on Lateline as having said that Latham's 'community focus' was really "ringing bells" for him. I wonder the peacenik is aware that Latham usually likes to ring people's bells by assaulting them.

I'll tell you what dismays me about your kind, Kernel.

There is so much the Howard government could be justifiably criticised about- its high taxes, its failure to reduce bureaucracy, its mismanagement of regional affairs, its defence spending, ad infinitum. But you guys are so much in lock step with each other, and have the blinders bolted on so tight, that all you can come up with is the Labor/ABC/SMH talking points, over and over again. It's no wonder that Latham, Rudd, Crean et al are spinning the wheels at the moment. Because they- and you- don't care about advancing Australia, you are stuck with the old tired issues like the republic, land rights, the US alliance- all of which have no real traction with most Australians. You will never win office by running Australia down, and making us feel bad about ourselves. It's the difference between Reagan and Latham, but it's a difference the Left never seems to learn. I guess that's why the only time they 'win', big time, is by the rifle barrel rather than the ballot box. Even then, they always blow it.

Garratt is a celebrity and he is used to having people fawn all over him, even when he supports environmental issues, he is generally amongst friends.

Lets see how he likes it if he gets into the political system, it ain't going to be pretty.

Also I would like to reinforce Tim's point, if hes such a political asset, put him up in a Lib seat, oh no, maybe hes not that much of an asset.

Can we smell another Cunningham, now that would be nice!

...I have personally spoken to a number of survivours and I have traveled to Poland and walked through Auchwitz...

..and how would those survivors feel, about you comparing Auschwitz, to Villawood Detention Centre?

The truth please Kernel, just for once.

Poor old Kernel

Hes got the "left wing politics for dummys" book open on the lap, his Che shirt on, and the holy trinity of fuck ups, Gough, Paul and Mark, staring down from the mantle piece.

He's been through the chapters, refugees, land rights, racism, republic, the US, Iraq but nothings working he sobs

Why can't I win, why do I look like a tool, Kernel cries.

Because mate you are fucking wrong!!!

Byron,
I am a liberal voter you moron. I just don't tolerate racists and howard spin politics. We need some economic leaders with vision.

And by the way I think YOU are "running Australia down" by bagging out the republic. YOU are "running Australia down" by letting the left make issues (rightly so in certain cases) over the refugees when we have a boatload of cash to deal with it. YOU are "running Australia down" when you don't make it clear we are our own country. Just because you support economic globalisation doesn't mean you have to abandon what it means to be Australian not UK owned or US leashed. Our own country which does as it pleases. And when it is cashed up doesn't put kids in behind barbed wire.

I bloody wouldn't want my kids in some porta-building in the desert behind barbed wire with their "role models" being guys who are mutilating themselves. That's not on mate, I don't care if they are jumping a que, you don't leave kids in that situation. If you do leave kids in there, then you either don't have any or you are a total failure of a parent and a human being. This isn't about left/right point scoring, it's about what a society does to kids in it's care. You can't tell me you like them being treated this way.

Sorry, but you lose on the camps and you lose on the republic.

Maybe we can debate the military a bit. But I think howard is selling us out on this one. It's the same argument about him removing guns, you either have guns and are able to protect yourself. Or you put it in someone elses hands and hope for the best. He hasn't handled it right at all.

Hey Kernel

I can think of two differences between Auchwitz and Woomera

1 Auchwitz didn't have cable.

2 People aren't fucking exterminated in Villawood........

I mean no disrespect to survivors of Auchwitz but I am completely fucking exasperated by Kernels completely erronerous comparision.

Peter Garrett - more hair than brains!

Nuffy et al. calling me a troll you guys are just bullies. You can be fully right wing and oppose racism (where's the science in it??? you guys are so quick to attack me, but I don't hear anyone attacking scott and his love potions, what a load) and putting kids behind barbed wire (every kid on aussie soil has rights). You can be right and support those things, you just have to have the balls to put up with mongels trying to drag you down because they think it's in some political parties best interests. A real right-winger isn't a slave to anybodies freakin party politics.

Nuffy, re-read my response to Byron on the same topic of the camps.

Kernel

The bullshit meter went straight off when you claimed to be a lib voter, thats usually when people try to claim the moral high ground by saying "I'm one of you but I don't agree"

The moral high ground is built on hypocracy.

As for kids in detention, it is the role of a parent to PROTECT their child and that means they are responsible for the kids not the Aussie government, and finally lets not forget, detention camps were set up by the last Labor government and NOBODY gave a shit until the Libs were in power.

Finally your rant about guns, you haven't a clue have you. You can still own a gun or guns, you just have register and store them correctly which is totally appropriate.

Using your scenario, if the chinese have made it to the mainland, we are in deep shit and you with your .243, Cat diesel power hat and banjo aren't going to stop that shitstorm no matter how much you think you are Rambo.

>you guys are so quick to attack me, but I don't hear anyone attacking scott and his love potions, what a load

Maybe because Scott is, well, coherent?

Kernel:

Still no word on Garrett. And you're the bullie - trying to brow-beat people into believing you're some kind of authority on something, or anything. You had a smidgeon of my sympathy when people started to throw around bullshit epithets against Aborigines, but your arguments about concentration camps and rapes and other people's parental competence are just ridiculous and strange.

I remember when Paul Keating was PM and his government implemented a detention policy to identify real refugees from the bogus ones. Asked about its justice he said "we can't just have people getting off a boat and wandering into Australian society." Quite so. That's got nothing to do with 'Howard spin.'

Incidentally, I believe you would say anything to solidify your claims when taken to task for them. You've been to Poland, you're a Liberal, you're Father of the freaking year. Calm down and truth up chief - other people here have a corporate memory of politics and affairs and they know you're talking tripe.

Kernel

Mate you were the bloke who tee'd off on everybody then you want to take it back a notch, you can't have it both ways.

Who said anything about race in this, I certainly haven't, your the one who pulled out the old "racist" cheap shot, reread your posts.

And the reason that people respond so passionately about the "concentration camp" comments is because its the exact type of emotive language people like you use to assert moral authority.

You arc'd up and now you are running.

Looks like a flip flop to me.

Nowak, if you even consider for a moment that scott can be defended with his "authoritative" anthropology link that includes love potions and vibrational healing (go to the link, see for yourself) you are a total moron.

Nuffy, you are using a classic tactic of claiming I an not a lib voter. There is something called old school liberalism ("liberal party" remember?) and there is something called economics which takes precedence over locking kids up. Even if you didn't care about the kids and you wanted to score a political point for the libs, put the kids in a better center - it defuses the left cheaply and sates people like me who make up a reasonable sized voting block of the liberals. If you think that people in the finance sector who don't like the ALP's economic policies are going to stomach people like voodoo scott and maggots like you guys who don't tell him to take his vibrating potions and shove them up his arse you are mistaken.

Don't try and gain a monopoly on what is conservative.

Conservative values says to me you take a kid away from a parent when that parent proves themself incapable of looking after the childs welfare. You are just a filthy redneck if you what to shirk your responsibility to those kids.

I reckon that if Latham and the ALP reckon Garrett is so damn good they should move aside one of their flogs on the Senate ticket and make way for him.

That would avoid the farce of shoe-horning him into a local Reps Division that he doesn't live in and has no understanding of the local issues - and where long-serving party members don't want him.

If Latham wants hime for the "big issues" rather than local concerns, the Senate is the place. The trouble is, Senators get their sinecures from a big factional power base. So much easier just to ride over the top of local party members who have worked their guts out for the ALP for years.

It shows Latham for the spineless and unprincipled prick that he really is.

TFK

Actually, this is all missing the poiint.

Kernal Failure, why don't you stand instead of Peter Garret? That is if you're not actuially Peter Garret.

The ALP needs people like you.

Please?

Wrong again Kernel:

Children in detention are required to stay with their parents. Some have said they want the children out, to stay with strangers. The High Court recently dismissed the Family Court's opposition to this policy.

You're going from bad to worse.

>Nowak, if you even consider for a moment that scott can be defended with his "authoritative" anthropology link that includes love potions and vibrational healing (go to the link, see for yourself) you are a total moron.

I didn't say "right," I said "coherent."

And little boy, have you noticed yet that everyone on the site thinks you're full of it? Kind of like they do in real life, I'm guessing?

Maybe it's you.

Sue, unless you can come up with a convincing arguement for keeping kids in those camps then I would speculate you are barren. Because I can't think of any reason why someone with conservative values would allow that to happen. You'd have to be a zoned out dope-smoking junkie to no care about kids in those situations. Seriously, how do you guys rationalise those kids in there? You've heard the reports, kids in small confined camp surrounded by barbed wire, living in porta-buildings in the heat, nothing to do, people inflicting self-harm. The porfessional psych association said it would cause permanent damage to those kids, and I believe them.

Where are your core values? You guys sound more like young ALP uni voters who want a free ride off the system than upright australians who want a family oriented capitalist society.

Sue, unless you can come up with a convincing arguement for keeping kids in those camps then I would speculate you are barren. Because I can't think of any reason why someone with conservative values would allow that to happen. You'd have to be a zoned out dope-smoking junkie to no care about kids in those situations. Seriously, how do you guys rationalise those kids in there? You've heard the reports, kids in small confined camp surrounded by barbed wire, living in porta-buildings in the heat, nothing to do, people inflicting self-harm. The porfessional psych association said it would cause permanent damage to those kids, and I believe them.

Where are your core values? You guys sound more like young ALP uni voters who want a free ride off the system than upright australians who want a family oriented capitalist society.

How dare you address Sue like that you turd.

The children stay with their parents because that is the civilised option - better that than that they be farmed out to stay with strangers.

The High Court dismissed the Family Court's opposition to this policy.

Nice avoidance of these points of mine by the way. Plastic chicken anyone?

Kernel

If only the world was as simple as you.

Where do we draw the line, do we remove all kids and have the issues of seperation anxiety or do we keep them with their parents?

How many kids are still in detention? Why are they still in detention, because usually their parents destroy their identification documents which makes the evaluation process all the harder for the authorities. If they were fair dinkum they wouldn't need to lie and the kids would be out in a flash.

You have somehow elevated the responsibilities of the government above those of a parent. Mate you are dreaming.

Obviously you feel the same about child homelessness and children in poverty. Why isn't the ISO and RAC picketing Macquarie st day and night because I'd suggest theres more kids in danger each night in Sydney alone than has passed through all the detention centres in the last 3 years.

Mate your responsibility extends to ALL kids so I expect to see you in your Che shirt and placard out the front of state parliament tomorrow.

If you are in fact only interested in the detention centre kids then your a olympic class hypocrite.

I've got it! you're really Mark Latham!

No-one else but the one-balled, taxi-driver-bashing wonder could be utterly fucked in the head, obsessed with scatological-agressiveness and generally reveal themselves to be such a total failure in the general exam to be a human being.

By the way, Sue didn't post anthing about kids in camps. You are obviously in such a hebefrenic state that you don't know who you are responding to.

When i say fucked in the head, I don't mean you are just a confused, iugnorant, idiot. I think you have obvious mental-health problems.

Am I the only one at this point flashing back on Monty Python's Holy Grail?

nice try nuffy, "there are other things wrong with the world so your issue is invalidated"

Yeah, and there are people starving in africa. Doesn't mean we should let people starve here.

There are systems in place for these people (and actually I have volunteered in helping some of them, not much, but a bit, have you?) there are no systems and there is nothing for these people. Howard handed it to the left on a silver platter when HE made it a big deal with that tampa thing (which didn't pay off for him).

So no che T-shirt, but I have helped. And none of your cheap diversionary tactics, you still haven't justified why the kids are there.

"seperation anxiety" "government above parent" what a load. As if seperation would be more traumatic than seeing dudes sewing their lips up... and having the same dudes encourage the kids to do the same. And as if the government shouldn't step in when there is an abusive relationship like that. Of course the government should butt out of personal affairs, but when a minor is being virtually assaulted it is time to act. You just wallow in you little justifications, they don't mean anything in the scheme of things.

Currency,

"How dare you address Sue like that you turd." Ummm she didn't have a point at all so I slammed her. Equal opportunity, I was treating her like I treat every person who has come into this room and made a comment without a point.

"The children stay with their parents because that is the civilised option - better that than that they be farmed out to stay with strangers." I'd have rather stay with a freindly childcare worker than with a dude starving himself and sewing his lips together. There is no contest here, don't even try it on.

"The High Court dismissed the Family Court's opposition to this policy." - yeah, and the constitution still says the queen owns your ass, doesn't mean its literally true, or that it is right. Don't quote court cases without all the contexts.

Yes I have been to poland, 8 hour train journey on old style cabbin style train (the police check you on the way out for antiques). Saw the blankets made of hair, piles of little kids shoes in Auchwitz etc. Saw the pope's birthplace in a little street in Kracow. That you doubt me shows that someone going overseas is a special thing in your little world. Sad.

>Am I the only one at this point flashing back on Monty Python's Holy Grail?

Actually, I'm flashing back to the "Ant" episode where a customer is abused by two retail employees, and insists on speaking with the manager. One of the employees gets the brilliant idea of pointing at the other and explaining he is the manager, and the second employee puts on an authoritative voice and claims that he is, indeed, the manager.

The customer looks at him with open contempt, as though thinking, "What do you have to be on to think that would fool anyone?" and yells for the manager again.

That's the beauty of Monty Python. Like World War II or the Iliad / Odyssey, it has such depth and subtlety that similies can be found anywhere.

Look out ladies, we're overpaid, oversexed and over here!

BTW, if you fellas are pointing Peter at Parliament, is it safe to say he's stumping for the seat?

Ya gotta work on this. We let Fleetwood Mac sing at the conventions, we don't make them the candidates. And when Sonny Bono was elected to Congress, part of the deal was he *stop* singing (see the Win-Win theory of politics; he turned out to be a decent congressman for his constituents, and he stopped singing. But he ran for the office, he wasn't dropped in place. And of course he was a conservative).

Nowak, you have done nothing but whinge, make a point.

JorgX, I expect we'll hear a world class whinge from you too. Don't forget to totally misread sentences for your own gain, "academic" my ass. Maybe a lowly tutor in some second rate uni.

nuffy, "your a olympic class hypocrite." but don't you think I deserve a gold medal? You have no point nuffy, and you know it. You have presented the weakest arguments I have ever heard for justifying the abuse of children. Yeah you are a real cool conservative.

>Nowak, you have done nothing but whinge, make a point.

Ahem. "I doubt Kernel Failure is normal, as people who make crackbrained comments on web pages are frequently crackbrained in real life."

Kernal Failure,

I've got it! You're really Robert Manne!

Once more for the dummy,

I didn't speak about Africa, Kids in Australia should all be equal right?

You say there are systems in place to catch the ones who fall through the cracks, nice try, I'd suggest that the scrutiny applied to the kids in the centres ensures that they are very well looked after.

You are great with the emotional blackmail attempts. I can't say that I have volunteered at a homeless shelter but based on the bullshit you have served up, I can't take your word for it.

What is the justification, firstly, the highest court in Australia says its the proper thing to do so thats good enough for me.

Secondly, the overiding standard is that kids are better off with their parents.

As for your last cheap shot, you really don't know who your talking to but i haven't seen anyone else need to pump themselves up quite as much as you.

Interestingly, you claim to be a lib voter, so you must have voted for Howard in 2001 when the centres were in full swing, but now you have changed your tune.

Its official, no need for the photo, you are a A grade dill.

Folks: Now Kernel is a lawyer!

I know the Constitution very well, having read it of my own volition at high school. I doubt that you have. Pursuant to the Australia Act 1986, the Queen doesn't own anyone's ass, by the way.

Yes, I would rather those children stayed with their parents rather than a child-care worker. And if they're self-mutilators, then - ipso facto - they are unfit as parents and as Australian citizens. But your depiction of the parents of these children is a caricature. A racist one, as it happens.

In an earlier post, you made a point of the land law reforms pertaining to Aborigines. That reform came from the High Court in Mabo and Wik. Now, many posts later, you disparage the eminence of that Court.

You've not rebutted one of my points.

Ergo: I win.

I don't understand why everybody's calling this guy Kernel when Failure is such a better description.

Hey Failure, I did try to look up this Mungo Man issue and guess what? You're right. It does seem to be bogus and this link http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article1056.html (which sounds a bit more credible) backs you up. It implies (although doesn't say) that local aborigines seem to be related to the Mungo Man after all.

What does that have to do with this topic? Do you
need some ranting space? go to blogspot.com and get your own blog.

Before you go, why don't you take advantage of the fact that Andrea doesn't seems to be watching and answer a couple of questions though?
1. How is letting the US open a training camp and sending here their least qualified soldires (i.e. those in need of training) like relying on them for protection?
2. How is not letting anyone without a visa simply show up on our land and start collecting dole and voting, like collecting people based on their ethnicity? How is offering them a free ride back home the same as concetrating them for extermination?
3. Is it the fact that you've been to Poland what makes you not-a-racist as opposed to, say, people who like to have a picture of the Brittish queen on their money?

You take your life into your hands random.

Kernel is widely-travelled, 'conservative' military expert with a specialisation in Constitutional Law and a shelf full of Father of the Year Awards.

That he did this while being, I don't know, a big wheel on the campus of Lithgow TAFE has to be commended.

And don't mention Villawood - he's seen the "piles of little kids (sic) shoes in Auchwitz."

His Renaissance-like expertise in everything has meant he's never been able to take the time to master such trifling things as logical thought, lower and upper case usage, sentence structure and punctuation.

He cares for the downtrodden women in detention. And if they disagreed with him, he'd swoop like he did on Sue, with primordial references to their barreness and perhaps their witchcraft.

The energy in this thread is the very reason why Garrett is wanted by the ALP.

That level of excitement will be reflected in the electorate, and it pulls energy from Howard.

Talk about rocking the political boat.

Garret is the person responsible for Midnight Oil. "Beds are Burning," alone, is enough to justify summary execution.

The energy in this thread is the very reason why Garrett is wanted by the ALP.

That level of excitement will be reflected in the electorate, and it pulls energy from Howard.

Talk about rocking the political boat.

Peter, you'll notice that after Kernel hijacked the thread, very few posts were about Peter Garret.

Andrea, I'd ban Kernel Failure, simply because he can't have an argument without insulting people - "maggot", "racist", "Klansman".

...I bloody wouldn't want my kids in some porta-building in the desert behind barbed wire with their "role models" being guys who are mutilating themselves....

...then don't sneak into foreign countries and destroy your travel documents, Kernel.

...yes I have been to poland, 8 hour train journey on old style cabbin style train (the police check you on the way out for antiques). Saw the blankets made of hair, piles of little kids shoes in Auchwitz etc. Saw the pope's birthplace in a little street in Kracow. That you doubt me shows that someone going overseas is a special thing in your little world....

We doubt you, because it beggars belief that anyone who had visited Auschwitz could compare it to Villawood Detention Centre. You have pulled the rug out from under yourself by posting that kind of absurdity.

Hmmm as begging for the great administrator to wreak her usual vengance on those who waste her bandwidth hasn't worked, I think I will play tease the troll, for a while.

As KF seems to be able to multi-skill, I'll give it a go, so putting aside my lawyer's robes and assuming a physician's mien let us proceed.

What we have here ladies and gentleman is a classic case of trollus blogus, featuring all the usual signs, the highjacking of a thread, the use of inconsistent and conflicting arguments, the resort to intemperate name calling and then complaining of others being bullies when responded to in kind, the failure to use a real e-mail address and the final giveaway, an insufferable moral superiority complex. The difficult part of this diagnosis is to identify the correct varient of the disease, this is critical in the application of the correct cure which ranges from pity, to the application of a boot to the backside, to the failure to apply the brakes when spotting them crossing the road in front of your car.

From the failure of the patient to mention either lunches or blogmires I think we can discount the presence of a sinister infection. From early arguments used it appears that the patient was exhibiting hyper libertarian fixation disorder, a condition closely related to Golden Strochi otherwise known as Would You Please Just Shut Up Jack Syndrome. However what we have here is the Trendy North Shore Wanker infection or Stockholm Lunch Syndrome, whereby an inability by the patient to voice his or her real opinions for fear of rejection by their trendy, lefty but ever so cool, friends leads to the adoption of their friends' views but with the patient exhibiting an incoherent rage as neither they nor their friends make the slightest bit of sense.

[/laboured sarcasm]

Whoops -- sorry guys, just happened on this car wreck. Pity about the twisted remains of one "Kernel Failure" -- then again, there doesn't seem to have been much of him to begin with. And since some of you have requested it -- no doubt you have grown strangely tired of being called racist klan-loving monarchist maggots who want to rape babies (or whatever -- I admit after the first few cascades of insults I began to skim K.L/s input) -- I have banned him.

By the way -- interesting, his IP addresses 208.183.225.11 and 66.5.125.11 resolved at Nashville, Tennessee, at the State of Tennessee Department of Education. For a furious Aussie patriot, he seems awfully misplaced.

ya! an he call all youse rednecks!

I thought the use of property rights to launch a plea for compensation to Aboriginies over loss of land was novel.
I'll support the payment as soon as the various claimants provide a valid title deed.

If Peter Garrett gets elected and the Labor Party also wins government then Garrett would be guaranteed a Ministry. This alone is a scary scenario but image him as Minister for the Environment.

Does this mean the students will abandon their anti-war/anti-US protesting/whingeing and return to the gates of the detention centres?
Is it cool again? best dust off the free the poor refugee placards, but we can keep the Howard hating ones out (it's all his fault by the way).

This is the State Executive of the ALP in NSW speaking.

"LO AND BEHOLD!!!!! We have discovered a more efficient and cleaner way of handing a blue riband ALP seat to the Greens following our experience in Cunnigham. The best lessons in life is to learn from your past mistakes"

From Kernel Failure

"Harry Tuttle,
Maybe beazly asked you a dumb question, I dunno. He's was a rhodes scholar so he can't be a total moron.
Training facility = lots of americans here. There will be trouble and you know it. As a military man are you saying you want the american's to protect you and do your job? The aussies in iraq are mainly running the airport aren't they? What's all this hide-behind the americans crap."

Training facility = lots of Americans occaisionally tramping around the less fashionable areas of Aust (Shoalwater Bay training area or similar), if they are lucky, they get a weekends leave then they are gone.

No more problem than any other tourists.

As an ex military man, I have absolutely no problem with supporting our allies, the fact is that an alliance requires both parties to help.

Your argument is that of a 12 year old, as an adult, I like the idea that we can get help, in the event of a conflict, from the most powerful military force on the planet, one that has capabilities we simply cannot ever afford.

As an ex-Para, the idea that if things turn to poo a vast amount of US airpower could be called upon to get our troops out of trouble strikes me as a damn good thing.

From Currencylad-

"Harry: What was the question? Are you able to say? I thought the, ahem, oil on Big Kimba was that he was pretty savvy on military stuff? "

Kimbo thought he was clued in, and quite simply the press were so clueless on military subjects that they had no chance of spotting that he wasn't.

I was working as a signaller in a Command Post in FNQ, been out bush for 5 or 6 weeks and was actually operating a radio when he rocked in and asked "so soldier, what do you do?" - I was on the verge of answering "I make the ice cream", when I noticed my RSM standing behind him, glaring at me and slowly shaking his head.
I went with "I'm a signaller".

harry,
as an ex-para you must know "we're a pack of bastards!"

Cheers Harry. I wish you'd gone with the icecream answer. God that would have been funny. Not for you though, by the sound of your RSM!

Ahem,

[addresses Her Honour Andrea Harris J]

Your Honour, I appear to oppose the application of my learned friends Quentin George, J.A.B.L. and CurrencyLad to ban the said Kernel Failure from Tim B’s blog.

I submit that his input should be retained and encouraged, for it is undoubtedly the funniest thing I’ve seen in days. Your Honour, this man’s capacity to write screed upon incoherent screed without making the slightest sense at such length is an undoubted achievement; his desperate attempts to maintain a consistent line of abuse provided gales of laughter for me.

I mean, his comments about Peter Costello – can ANYONE else see an obvious link between Costello’s republicanism and his policy on aging? Solid Gold.

And who can forget >?

Dunno, I though righties like me believed in the rule of law which (as I understand it) includes the Migration Act. As for Sue being “barren” – That’s just demeaning the art of invective

My personal favourite, Your Honour, is >

I remember going to all of the Constitutional Law classes at Law School, but I don’t recall this bit (Is it too late to run this past Professor Goldsworthy?). Come on Kernel, quote me the section in the Constitution where it says this!!

Your Honour, this man(?) has provided such an amount of innocent merriment; it would be unjust to deprive us of his willingness to make a fool of himself for my entertainment.

Let the Troll go free.

Your Honour, that is the case for the lunatic

Pacman: I admit I was tempted to keep him too. A troll like that is almost a treasure. But... I had to respond to the cries for help! Besides, he was hogging all the troll time.

Anyway, he'll probably be back; IPs change periodically and I can only ban them one at a time.

[Looks up. Sees the quotes haven't worked. Thinks: "So THAT'S why they have the preview function!"]

harry,
as an ex-para you must know "we're a pack of bastards!"

Posted by: Yasonas at June 9, 2004 at 04:52 PM
--------------

"Bastards all are we!"