October 07, 2003

HONOUR UPHELD

Itís another one of those honour killings England is becoming famous for:

Two men murdered their cousin on her wedding day because her family did not approve of her choice of husband, a court heard yesterday.

Rafaqat Hussain deliberately waited until just before the ceremony was about to begin before stabbing Sahjda Bibi 22 times with a kitchen knife, it was alleged.

The man she planned to marry was a divorcee, which explains why she had to be killed. I mean, thereís just no way around a problem like that, is there?

Posted by Tim Blair at October 7, 2003 03:49 PM
Comments

And this is the "religion of peace" some Muslims keep going on about? Fucking scum.

Posted by: Jake D at October 7, 2003 at 04:00 PM

Beat me to the punch, Jake,

Posted by: Razor at October 7, 2003 at 04:11 PM

Hey, before you judge these people have look at the bloke your daughter/niece is going out with. It takes all my will power to resist strangling him.

Posted by: Pig Head Sucker at October 7, 2003 at 04:22 PM

'Honour' killing. That's like calling Hamas terrorists 'activists'.

Rather, it's brutal primeval brain-dead murder perpetrated by an inhuman sub-species unfit to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

Crimes like these make Australian High Court Justice Michael Kirby's argument against capital punishment sound absurd. He talks about the dignity of killers when their actions strip them of any dignity.

Posted by: ilibcc at October 7, 2003 at 04:26 PM

Her cousins???? Hell, I wouldn't trust my idiot cousins to decide what to watch on television, much less who I ought to marry.

Posted by: Conrad at October 7, 2003 at 05:51 PM

You, Blair, are a dirty racist. You selectively cite examples of violence committed by "Muslims" and ignore similar or worse acts perpetrated by other, less tolerant faiths. Why, just last week I heard a jewish baby boy was brutally circmcised and that George "The Animal" Pell won't allow homosexuals partake in superstitious rituals (it's called psychic violence people). Not to mention the great Hindu massacre of 1987 committed by the so-called Sisters of Charity in Calcutta... oh wait, that never happened...

Posted by: Fidens at October 7, 2003 at 06:48 PM

i read that piece by pooshooter kirby in the smh today too ilibcc. i reckon he's a bit out of touch with public opinion on the capital punishment thing tho .. i reckon put it to a referendum and let the people decide. i hate to be told what's right by some degenerate old left wing poof lecher gough whitlam worshipping RUMPRIDER!. he shits me NO end! notice how he had to have a dig at john howard for being ambivalent about the death penalties in the bali trial? so much for having judges who are'nt tainted by political thought. stupid old prick should be sacked.

Posted by: roscoe p coltrane at October 7, 2003 at 07:11 PM

Its strange how many homosexuals and lefties seem to be absolutely enthralled by terrorist creeps.

Could it be that they mistake the murderous and cowardly impulses of terrorists for strength? Do they confuse acting upon ones beliefs with terrorism?

I once read a very entertaining theory concerning the pro-Arab bias of many British officers and Intelligence people during the pre-Israel period. The idea was that many Public School Brits (most officers and administrators came from this class)were closet homosexuals - and Sheik Omar of the Burning Sands appealed more to their romantic sensibilities than Izaac Goldstein who owned the corner deli.

Maybe Kirby is one of these types. Blinded by Muslim Manliness. "Lets reason with them" ; "lets treat them like civilised human beings" while they laugh at our weakness and plot more murders. This is an eminent citizen of Australian society? God help us.

Posted by: dee at October 7, 2003 at 11:05 PM

It is impossible to believe the depth of depravity and inhuman, life-hating evil of an act like this. What kind of despicable scum could possibly do such a thing? No matter what mis-shapen pattern your "culture" has warped you into, isn't there some vestige of humanity left that could not possibly let this happen? Apparently not.

Apart from the calculated, brutal murder of a young woman in the prime of her life, it was his own cousin on her wedding day, FFS! But I forgot - we mustn't try to impose our values on such an authentic culture. After all, we don't want to be imperialists or orientialists or anything, do we?

Posted by: Bob Bunnett at October 7, 2003 at 11:19 PM

Jake: honour killings occur in many cultures...ask the Italians for example. While prevalent in Muslim countries they are often tied up with tribal and other factors. It is usually the peasant mentality amongst some who practice it, that erroneously associates it with the teaching of Islam or some other religion(and only the Taliban, as far as I am aware, expressly endorsed honour killings). Also, the Muslim concept of 'peace' is not how you and I would define it. If we want to show our indignation, perhaps even do something constructive against such a heinous crime, or similar - like burning widows alive at their husband's cremation - then we need to start by fighting our own ignorance and bigotry. Know yourself. Know your enemy.

ilibcc - before you run out and hang these people ask yourself: are women in your country more likely to be abused or killed by their spouse then by a total stranger? Maybe we are all fit to breathe the same air?

roscoe - if you are happy to call Kirby a rumprider, a poof lecher and a prick, then you surely wouldn't mind if others call you a breeder and an arselicker and whatever else. I guess you also won't mind if I say, you sound as if you're not old enough to have grown pubes. By all means disagree with him. Be colourful. But using that language only destroys your credibility. Do to others.

fidens - yeah, whatever.

sermon ended for today children.

Posted by: saint at October 7, 2003 at 11:23 PM

Saint,

honour killings occur in many cultures

If an "honour killing" occurs in Britain committed by non-Muslims and Tim or Jake fail to condemn it, let me know.

Also, the Muslim concept of 'peace' is not how you and I would define it.

LOL! Yes. Their meaning is submission to G-d.

Know yourself. Know your enemy.

As far as "know yourself" is concerned, have you stopped honour killing your wives?

are women in your country more likely to be abused or killed by their spouse then by a total stranger

The greatest influence on domestic violence is whether such violence is accepted by society. What kind of message would we send if we turned a blind eye to something this premeditated?

Posted by: Andjam at October 8, 2003 at 12:13 AM

Actually Saint, in Jordan the clerics opposed the movement increase the punishment for 'honor' killings. Also, whatever may be tolerated in the culture that these people came from, they are now living in Great Britian. I don't think that it's too far out of line for them to accept certain standards of their host culture - such as a ban on murder.

Posted by: rabidfox at October 8, 2003 at 12:54 AM

Pig Head;

Note a key difference - you want to strangle him.

Posted by: Annoying Old Guy at October 8, 2003 at 01:36 AM

Peace to the muslim is when the whole world is muslim by sword or by will. Then such muslim honor killings will not be questioned and all will be 'well' in the world.

Posted by: Jericho at October 8, 2003 at 07:46 AM

To Saint above: Large parts of Italy, like Spain and Portugal, were occupied by Muslim Arabs for several hundred years.

It's no mystery to me why you find instances of "the unwritten rule" (the tendancy to excuse the killing of an unfaithful wife caught in the act) in the cultures of Spain, Italy and (probably) Portugal but in no other Christian culture.

Posted by: Irene A. at October 8, 2003 at 09:46 AM

Saint, don't even try to tie my democratic and generally fair culture to one whos standards are dominated ruled by violence, ignorance and bigotry.

I do agree that Muslims at the wacko end do not share the same idea of peace as normal, sane people do. Bali, saint? September 11? Both are good examples of what some freaks are willing to do for "peace"

Take you apologist, relativist, fucked up ideas and have a big mutual hate session with other idiots.

Posted by: Jake D at October 8, 2003 at 10:16 AM

The stranger/family member argument is a red herring, pure and simple.

Evil is evil and one who considers that society is better off without the perpetrator of evil has the admiration of many and the loathing of only a select few whose moral meanderings have allowed themselves to rationalise the keeping alive of a truly evil murderer who, despite the protestations of the latter, has comprehensively lost any claim to dignity, which is nothing more than the respect of society.

The above murderer was a family member.

The murderers of the Bega schoolgirls - two young, totally innocent girls, tied to a tree, subjected to truly unspeakable acts before having their lives snuffed out horribly - were strangers.

Evil is evil, and no amount of rationalisation will convince society at large that such evil must be allowed to remain sentient.

Posted by: ilibcc at October 8, 2003 at 12:06 PM

Over in the UK the people don't have too much recourse when events like these take place. Here, if some sick bastard carries out an honor killing on some unfortunate female relative, he won't even live to see a jury. I'll drive all the way across the US if I have to to introduce him to my AK-47. Killing an innocent woman for so trivial a reason (let alone any reason at all) is disgusting, and will NOT be tolerated here.

Posted by: Tim in PA at October 8, 2003 at 03:06 PM

Andjam - No one argued against condeming it. My argument is against those who react to it by shooting at the first thing that moves. If the newspaper report is right, these guys killed the girl because she was planning to marry a divorcee. Given that Islam does not prohibit divorce, neither does it prevent divorced men from marrying another woman (or more than one for that matter) then you would instantly have to question why Jake made the association with Islam and peace. Perhaps because he doesn't think about what he reads. He sees a headline that says 'Muslim bride' and a comment from Tim about 'honour killings' and makes an association. On what grounds I wonder?

You are right about the Muslim understanding of peace. It seems lost on some people who argue for McWorld. But that would also mean that *if* such behaviour was condoned in Islam, then such a crime would be an act of 'peace', submission to god's will. Which means in order to fight it, you are going to have to get a bit more creative than name-calling or advocating genocide (and that was hyperbole; no one is accusing Jake of that thought)

As to knowing myself. Well I don't have a wife. But I live next door to a womens' shelter, and based on that experience alone, I would say we haven't learnt to stop killing our wives either. Unfortunately the stats back me up.

No one said anything about turning a blind eye. In fact, it is often difficult to get the guys who commit honour killings, even in countries like Britain, because of the wall of silence put up by their communities. But I can also argue that walls of silence are put against all sorts of crimes and acts of violence. In every country. In every playground. Ask any cop. Ask any guy down the pub what he thinks about snitching on a mate.

Jake D. - Thank you for proving my original point to you. Being Aussie born and raised, and living in 'your' generally fair and democratic society as a law-abiding citizen, you are going to have to tolerate me.

Rabid fox - Yes Jordan has made some pathetic attempts, although ironically, sometimes the best recourse for women there is to go to jail - not as punishment, but for their own protection. It is a complex, deeply ingrained problem that will take a long term, concerted effort to eradicate, if at all.

Jericho - fundamentally you are right. Leaving aside the so-called association between honour killings and Islam, how then would one propose to fight this militant aspect of Islam without degenerating into genocide or World War III? Possibly not one to discuss on this thread. But one that should be tackled with a little more thought then that displayed by some on this thread.

Irene A. - A good point and it may have contributed. Although I suspect you will find evidence of similar crimes in other cultures that predated Islam or where Islam has never made inroads. The world is a big and complex place. But humans are the same the world over.

Ilibicc - Agreed. Evil knows no ethnic, cultural, social or religious boundaries. As to how you deal with it, or more precisely, how do you deal with 'evil people' is another subject. Do you lock them up or put a gun to their head? Do you wait for it to happen or find its centre of gravity and nip it in the bud? Either way, is the best outcome you can hope for a total elimination of evil or merely restraint? And how, if at all, should all of this temper our response in fighting it? Again, probably not stuff for discussion on this thread.

That's all I was hoping: a bit more thought in how we read and what we write. As well as a hope that this sort of reactive reading and writing is not indicative of the way we go about dealing with such crimes. (I am assuming here that we don't just read and think about things but perhaps sometimes get off our butts and do something constructive about it, no matter how small, even if it is nothing more than getting to know your neighbour)

Posted by: saint at October 9, 2003 at 12:45 AM

Now be fair, Tim, you Eurocentric white male. They only stabbed her 22 times, and it was only a kitchen knife, not a Stanley knife. Besides, punishing them will only escalate the cycle of violence. We need to look at the root causes of why they hated this evil bitch, and frankly, which of us would not kill a mere woman for choosing the wrong husband? This harlot clearly had it coming, and she clearly demonstrates why the removal of the clitoris should not be delayed. Allahu Akhbar!

Posted by: Clem Snide at October 9, 2003 at 12:58 AM

Saint,
A thoughtful post. I am afraid, however, that the general theme from all you wrote is essentially evil exists deal with it. But how?

The current time in history does seem to have resulted in this clash of civilizations and not to be contrary, Islam is wrapped up inside of it. The whole of their culture is a political/religious mutation which takes a religious thought and merges it with political ambition - hence the contradictions that currently exist on the comments of Islam being a religion of peace. This happened from Islam's beginnings, where Muhammad (sp? sorry I am having trouble today)- a military figure - created a religion to further his territorial ambitions, by first uniting the tribes of wandering Arabs and then using that locus of power to expand his dominion. This is unique amongst religions.

Since this relationship is so intertwined, it will be difficult to avoid the potential flare up you rightly suggested might happen (WW III etc.). If their civilization is determined to attack in any fashion because they have heard the message from a religious perspective - our best hope is to take action, as was done in Iraq, and to forment what dissent in Iran we can muster to bring about their leader's demise, and to isolate Syria and if necessary attack it. And to put pressure on Saudi Arabia to modernize.

These actions - which are short of WW III scenerios give us the best option to separate Islam from politics, and see if it may grow as a faith alone. If we are unsuccessful - jihad will be with us always, and to convert to the one true faith or go to the sword, or live as a slave.

Posted by: JEM at October 9, 2003 at 03:15 AM

Without trying to sound too inflammatory, heres a plan for dealing with it; when an honor killing happens [and I honestly don't care what religion they are or are not, equal opportunity, after all..] , go find the bastards who did it, empty several magazines into them, and then go find any other members of their social group who danced in the streets when the poor woman was killed, and similarly ventilate them.

I think this might cut down on the whole "honor killing" problem.

Posted by: Tim in PA at October 9, 2003 at 03:04 PM

And the difference, by the way, Saint, between these women victims and the victims in a western battered wife shelter, IS THAT IT IS NOT SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE IN WESTERN CULTURE FOR A MAN TO MURDER HIS WIFE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Just, you know, thought that observation might be important; its why its so important to fight this in particular.

Posted by: Tim in PA at October 9, 2003 at 03:08 PM

Saint, I read your "reasonings" and conclude you are still full of shit. I link Muslims with Honour Killings because it is Muslims who are doing them. Duh.

Posted by: Jake D at October 9, 2003 at 03:30 PM

Jem...you speak sensibly even if I differ in my opinion on a couple of points.

Tim...
Murder is murder, whether it is socially acceptable or not. Besides which, such murders are not socially acceptable in a lot of non-western cultures either. And if you want to single out 'this type of murder' in particular, we should throw in a few other similar, "socially-unacceptable-murders-in-western-culture" as well.

In your hurry to shoot the bastards, I trust you nevertheless don't spurn the efforts of many, women included, who often at the risk of their own lives, are working to prevent women being killed in the first place. Their actions have saved lives. And I say this without sarcasm or rancour - I hope your words and actions do the same. Because dead girls can't thank you.

Posted by: saint at October 11, 2003 at 09:30 AM

I agree, something seriously has to be done about all these 'honour killings' as they seem to be called. However, what about all of the extremists that don't seem to care much for the laws in certain countries? Many of them don't seem to even care about the punishment (whatever it may be) for conducting one of these 'honour killings'. People say that capital punishment is not the answer because it is too inhumane. Well, i say that if a man (and i use that term very loosely) wants to brutally kill his own daughter, because she wants to live her own life (not hurting anyone, by the way) then THAT is totally inhumane!! Ever hear the phrase, make the punishment fit the crime? well that is exactly what is called for in cases such as these. However, as i mentioned earlier, you also have these idiotic extremists, and i would gladly welcome any worthy ideas as to how they can be spotted and stopped. Authorities need to take this matter seriously, or we may lose a lot of decent people who just want to live a 'normal' life, the way they choose, and not the way a certain culture dictates.

Posted by: Patrick at October 17, 2003 at 10:06 PM