August 25, 2003
ALWAYS AMERICA
Mark Steyn on the blame America firsters:
As far as the world's press is concerned, the folks who are really to blame are the Americans. It's the Americans' fault because:
a) They made Iraq so insecure their own troops are getting picked off every day;
b) OK, fewer are being picked off than a few weeks back, but that's only because the Americans have made their own bases so secure that only soft targets like the UN are left;
c) OK, the UN's a soft target only because they turned down American protection, but the Americans should have had enough sense just to go ahead and install the concrete barriers and perimeter trenches anyway;
d) OK, if they'd done that, the beloved UN would have been further compromised by unduly close association with the hated Americans, which is probably what got them killed in the first place.
In other words, whatever happens, it's always evidence of American failure. That's the only ''root cause'' most of the West is interested in.
Meanwhile we stupid folk labor under the misapprehension that the terrorists might be to blame. Poor dumb us.
Posted by Tim Blair at August 25, 2003 03:05 AMYeah...I mean they only attempted to deceive the whole world by overstating the threat of Iraq, illegally invaded another country & killed thousands of civilians in the process. Blameless.
Meanwhile they cosy up to the Saudis where the real terrorist threat originates.
Posted by: bongoman at August 25, 2003 at 07:52 AMwe stupid folk labor under the misapprehension that the terrorists might be to blame.
Such a view is lacking in a little thing we like to call "nuance."
In fact, some helpful person has squeezed out a little nuance above. Don't step in it!
Posted by: Brian Jones at August 25, 2003 at 09:11 AMYes maybe also to blame is: Sheer dumb stupidity; blind arrogance; hubris; vested economic interests; rabid warmongering right wing journos; Richard Perle; Douglas Fieth; Paul Wolfovitz; Dick Cheney; a puppet president; ... and finally to do his small part to screw thing up is that redoubtable digger of low-grade doggy doo, Tim Blair
Posted by: rex at August 25, 2003 at 10:20 AMMy, the nuance is really hitting the fan tonight!
Didn't you forget the ruling troika of Cheney, George HW Bush, and (who is it this week? Oh yeah) Ashcroft!
Posted by: Brian Jones at August 25, 2003 at 10:37 AMYou say labor I say labour (unless I'm talking about the political party).
Posted by: Alex Hidell at August 25, 2003 at 11:10 AM"Sheer dumb stupidity;"
Yep. That's the US alright. We're just a bunch of stupid, low culture trash. Why, we've never contributed anything to the world. I'm sure the world would be much better off if some really smart and cultured country were to be a super power. Keep wishing real hard.
"blind arrogance;"
Just a bunch of arrogant bastards. That's all we are. From our founding we've been arrogant. We tend to attract people who won't take crap from anyone and believe they are equal to, if not better, than everyone else. The arrogant NERVE!!
Don't know what we can do about this. I'm sure many are hoping and praying we get killed by the 1000's to teach us a lesson.
"hubris;"
DEFINATELY!! We are nothing, if not a self-confident and proud people. It actually gets a little tiring to live here. The "can do spirit" is very annoying when you're tired and you have a project to complete.
" vested economic interests;"
How awful!! We should be ashamed of ourselves, of course. However, we're too stupid, arrogrant and full of ourselves to be ashamed.
"rabid warmongering right wing journos;"
Part of the "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" no doubt. Under the thumb of their "Zionist Masters".
"Richard Perle;"
The nerve of that guy getting killed! Well, I hope he thinks long and hard about why he deserved it. What made those poor, innocent, loving people kill him?
Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 25, 2003 at 11:10 AM
Bongoman: Yesterday in the Wilkie thread, you stated " Iraq was never a threat." Today, in this thread, you tell us the Americans deceived the world by " overstating the threat." Yesterday no threat, today, a threat, but overstated. At this rate, by next week you'll be completely converted. A word of advice; if you're going to toss out generalized bullshit anti-American cliches, at least make an attempt to be consistent.
Posted by: Mike at August 25, 2003 at 11:43 AMWell, I don't know if it's out and out stupidity, but I do know it's all fucked up. It's not as if it was that hard to predict what would happen in post-war Iraq, was it?
So:
1. It is fucked up.
2. Americans are in charge
3. Americans are in charge of a fuck up
Ergo, the Americans fucked up. "Stupid is as stupid does".
It's going to get worse. The Americans cannot win this. Only the truly stupid or the terminally clueless would think otherwise.
Posted by: drummergirl at August 25, 2003 at 12:07 PMHey, Rex,
There must be some other Jewish advisor, undersecretary or deputy secretary in the Bush administration you're leaving out. Or have you, just by happenstance, named them all?
Posted by: JPS at August 25, 2003 at 12:09 PMToo right! Those bloody American fisters!
Oh, fiRsters,sorry.
Posted by: Elizabeth Borden at August 25, 2003 at 12:29 PMLet's see...Bush spent months trying to convince the UN to honor its own resolutions, to no avail (surprise surprise). Then, the US conducted the most successful military campaign in world history, with the additional goal (successfully met) of minimizing casualties on both sides. Regardless of the details(and there are legitimate points of debate about those details), the world is undeniably a better place for having removed Saddam. Now we are in the process of converting a fundementalist country with little experience in democracy and a generation's worth of brain-washing into a democratic society, and because we haven't completed a task in six months that any sane person would recognize would take from 5-10 years, it is labeled "fucked up?"
Who's stupid? You've got to be kidding me!
Posted by: Jerry at August 25, 2003 at 12:52 PM"Richard Perle;"
The nerve of that guy getting killed! Well, I hope he thinks long and hard about why he deserved it. What made those poor, innocent, loving people kill him?
I think Chris means Daniel Pearl.
Posted by: Cracker Spawn at August 25, 2003 at 12:56 PMWhat's the matter, nuancistas? Your flash mob meeting to stand in the middle of the street and suck your thumbs for exactly four minutes and forty-seven seconds rained out?
Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 25, 2003 at 01:17 PMThis'll probably challenge the attention span of the rwdb contingent, but they should read it anyway. The loony left, being better informed as a rule, have probably read it already.
Posted by: Nemesis at August 25, 2003 at 01:25 PMBugger. Still technologically illiterate. Cut and paste this:
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0824-04.htm
Posted by: Nemesis. at August 25, 2003 at 01:28 PMDrummer girl...are you one of those who also predicted millions of Iraqi casualties(didn't happen),millions of refugees(never happened),and so on.You people who would rather Saddam and boys still be in power,busily filling mass graves,than the U.S. topple them fill me with disgust.It's no wonder we Americans have realized that we need to do whatever is necessary and ignore a world which seems to support terrorists and tyrants in knee jerk anti-Americanism.You also stated "the Americans can't win this'.Here's a little clue for you...we already won.
Posted by: RH at August 25, 2003 at 02:10 PMAnd having gone to Nem's link....
Hahahahahahahaha! ROTFLMAO.
Posted by: Andrea Harris at August 25, 2003 at 02:11 PMMike:
I believe that "Arnie is not a good actor". Someone else believes that "Arnie is a very good actor". I reply that they are "overstating the acting ability of Arnie".
Does that reply therefore invalidate my original assertion that "Arnie is not a good actor"? Not a bit.
Now swap "Arnie" with "Iraq", and "good actor" with "threat", and we see that your critique of bongoman is not well-founded, logically.
There are many ways of critiquing the views of bongoman, but this was not one of them.
[sorry if it reads as condescending, but I hate seeing debate ruined by bad logic]
Posted by: Geoff at August 25, 2003 at 02:22 PMDrummer Girl,
Before the Americans went in, Iraq was a hell of a place in which to live - controlled by a paranoid and sadistic dictator who commonly used mass murder, torture, and propaganda to keep the population in check.
Now, Iraq is free from this chap. Very UNfucked up, if you ask me.
Tim,
I am shocked to have it pointed out to me by Rex that you have been slinging low-grade doggy doo at us (Rex and comrades have convinced me they are shit experts). While it probably can't be done, could you at least attempt to match the shit shovelling standard set by commondreams.com.
Posted by: ZsaZsa at August 25, 2003 at 08:30 PMAnother excellent column by Mark Steyn. I especially like his speculation of the "root cause" of the bombing of the UN building in Iraq:
"Sitting in the middle of an unprotected complex staffed by ex-Saddamite spies was Sergio Vieira de Mello, the individual most directly credited with midwifing East Timor into an independent democratic state. Osama bin Laden (or rather whoever makes his audiocassettes) and the Bali bombers have both cited East Timor as high up on their long list of grievances: the carving out, as they see it, of part of the territory of the world's largest Islamic nation to create a mainly Christian state. Now they've managed to kill the fellow responsible."
Yup, makes sense to me.
Posted by: Sean at August 26, 2003 at 03:22 AMCracker Spawn:
"I think Chris means Daniel Pearl."
Thanks for the correction.
I posted that in the evening when my brain was sleeping but my body hadn't yet followed.
(Actually, the above is just a coverup for my inability to acknowledge a mistake. Being the
arrogant,dumb and hubris filled American I am I can't admit to a mistake. I never make them!!)
Posted by: Chris Josephson at August 26, 2003 at 07:11 AM
Geoff: Sorry, I don't follow your logic. Bongoman IS being grossly inconsistent. " No threat " and " an " overstated threat " are not similar, no matter how you spin it. Bongoman is too specific, " No threat," means zero threat. " Overstated threat " means there is a threat of some kind.
I agree with you, I hate seeing debate ruined by bad logic. So don't do it anymore, okay?
Posted by: Mike at August 26, 2003 at 01:46 PM