Tim Blair

Pretty soon they'll want their own drinking fountain, for Allah's sake.

The Liberal Party in Victoria just keeps getting ammunition to belt the Left, yet they don't. I guess that's why they're in Opposition and will be for years.

Why not build their own pool?

Moonee Valley is known within the district as Loony Valley.

Build their own pool? What, do you think this is America? In Australia, if you want anything, you whinge to the government and get the taxpayers to pick up the tab.

The same council has dispensed with a generic prayer that begins proceedings by beseeching "almighty God'' to guide their deliberations. It now has a ''prayer of the week'' which can be sikh, muslim, hindi, Anglican, Catholic, etc. When do the Magpie worshippers get their say? Or the Satanists? The Church of Dylexia (In Dog We Trust)?

Aw shit, that should have been dsylexia...dylsexia... dyslexia...

Wasn't there a similar case in America?

Maybe these chaps are tired of women asking them whether the water is cold, when it clearly isn't.

Slatts

It is Hume Council that has sanctimonious multi-cultural prayers before they begin their weekly shit-fight, at which roads, rates and rubbish are almost NEVER discussed.

While it was Moreland Council (aka People's Republic of Moreland) that started segregated swimming.

Uh, oh. It's spreading.

I fail to see why Tim is getting so excited, and the klan reference? A bit cheap really.

There are a women-only gyms operating around Melbourne for quite a while now (Fernwood if memory serves me) and there's been the usual "aww that's not fair" crowd complaining, but at the end of the day it means little.

They're catering, in the best capitalistic fashion, to a niche market of women who feel better training with only other women. Good for them, I don't agree with it but tying a klan reference in is extreme and doesn't further the discussion.

So what if some guys (the fact that they are muslim is neither here nor there) want to swim without women? Recently a group of muslim ladies wanted a ladies-only hour at their local pool and much was made over that too. If a bunch of shy, fat, guys/girls made the same request would this have even been posted? A storm in a tea cup.

It's simple, you don't like it, go elsewhere or swim at another time. You could complain (as is your right) and have the idea defeated but acting as if this is some great attack on Aussie culture is stupid.

If the majority of LOCALS like the idea then fine, if they don't it will remain mixed and the fellas can get used to the idea or swim elsewhere.

Another thing, it's not a crime to be muslim or follow the belief therein. Jews don't eat pork, christians aren't supposed to eat meat on fridays, muslim men and women should bathe seperately... see a pattern? Every group has their own list of "thou-shalt-nots" and as long as their is no harm to others let them be.

"They're catering, in the best capitalistic fashion"

A public swimming pool on the other hand is hardly a capitialist endeavour.

"If a bunch of shy, fat, guys/girls made the same request would this have even been posted?"

If a bunch of fat shy guys made the request they'd have been told where to go.

The poor veil of 'Muslim culture / religion' is no excuse for sexist segregation of public facilities.

Jake this is typical Islamist shit. The more pull these people have the more they try to have themselves exeptionalised, this process is ongoing wherever there are large Islamic minorities.

It's divisive, it's meant to be. These people thrive on driving wedges between muslims and their host societies, all the better to radicalise and control them. If you think it'll end with men-only bathing, you are seriously naive, my friend.

There are a women-only gyms operating around Melbourne for quite a while now (Fernwood if memory serves me) and there's been the usual "aww that's not fair" crowd complaining, but at the end of the day it means little.

Yes yes yes ... but that's affirmative action dealing with a male-dominated environment! Swimming is not female-dominated, so similar reasoning doesn't apply.

Jews don't eat pork, christians aren't supposed to eat meat on fridays, muslim men and women should bathe seperately

The second one doesn't apply to Catholics any more, and I'm not aware of Islam forbidding mixed bathing.

Hmmm right...

"Yes yes yes ... but that's affirmative action dealing with a male-dominated environment! Swimming is not female-dominated, so similar reasoning doesn't apply." Bullshit. Male-dominated my arse, maybe a a gym catering to a gay customer base but you're over generalising even worse than I am.

Also, having been an employee at one such gym/pool I can tell you it is very capitalistic. User pays, no freebies. Being paid-up users you'd think they would have some say into what services they want.

"The second one doesn't apply to Catholics any more, and I'm not aware of Islam forbidding mixed bathing." Picky, the first one does, as does no adultery in the catholic church as another. The spokesman claims it is - lets have a scholar prove it either way, I'm not one so cannot confirm. Examples only, stick to the subject.

"Islamist shit" is blowing up people in bars, it's crying from the pulpit (choose your muslim alternative) that all westerners need killing etc...*THAT'S* Islamist bullshit, not wanting to have a swim, in a peaceful way, without the opposite sex being there is a personal choice and doesn't hurt anyone. Get some bloody perspective.

Why the hell does any self respecting male want to go swimming if there are no babes in skimpy attire around anyway?

Ask Thorpie

Jake,

What about Murdoch's point that this is a PUBLIC swimming pool, not a private gym? Generally speaking, private venues have much more control over limiting access to their facilities. If it's a public place, though, this sort of thing should not fly.

Like Kevin said, if they want to have segregated swimming, they should build their own pool.

Hey Jake.

Although I agree that anyone should be able to ask for anything, and if most disagree they should be told to get bent, I think you have missed the point here.

You said, "the fact that they are muslim is neither here nor there" IN fact it is. It is on this tenant that they are applying for an exemption under the anti-discrimination act. The claim is their religion does not allow them to "Bathe" in front of women.

This may be so, but to me bathing is something you do to get clean - swimming laps is what you do at a public pool. Maybe the Koran had public swimming pools in mind when that part was written. Like you I'm no scholar but I don't think there were any public swimming pools in the ancient middle east.

It seems to be selective use of information, applied in a modern context, to get an outcome that suits those doing the complaining.

A public swimming pool is paid for, open to and used by the public - no exceptions - I really dont care what the Koran says about it. If they dont like it, build their own pool and make up their own rules, very easy.

Canon Law still requires that Catholics not eat meat on Fridays (Canon 1251)

Most Episcopal Conferences have determined that, instead of abstaining from meat, Catholics may perform an act of penance of their choosing. But, the main rule is to abstain from meat on Fridays, the performance of another penance instead is an optional alternative.

Catholics may feel that way themselves but they do not attempt to have the sale or consumption of meat banned by others because it is against the rules of their religion and they may find it offensive.

Individuals are quite entitled to practice their own religious observations, as long as they do not interfere with others wishing to go about their lives.

Why don,t they hire the pools in sessions like swimming clubs do for club nights, and competitions?

Canon 1251

Thou shalt order fish and chips from your corner Greek fishmonger every Friday night, drowned with vinegar and showered with salt, wrapped up in newspaper. Steaming slabs of whiting and flake bursting out of crisp batter with massive handcut chips. None of your french fries rubbish. Side orders of hot potato cakes, fried scallops, pickled onions, pickled mussels. Drink with hot tea, or beer for the men. Enjoy.

God I loved Friday nights.

Surely the law prohibits unfair discrimination.

I still use the term 'discriminating' as a compliment.

Yours match my memories exactly Pooh. I mean exactly.

Fridays were great.

Gilly,
Fair enough on the point about the reason for seeking exemption, being muslim is factor to a degree. Muslims are members of that community and have that same right to access. I'll draw the long bow with an opinion I *don't* share, but their view may be that they're being excluded due to the mixed environment, I don't know, I don't think it's a strong or supportable arguement but it's a thought. Have a shot, I've left a lot of ammo ;-).

Sam and Gilly,
User pays, user can have some say in what they want. Private or public, they're entitled as ticket holders, to make requests. Whether or not you/I agree or disagree is not relevnt unless you are a member of that "community"/Suburb and wish to affect the outcome.

As far as I'm concerned, if they want to bathe/swim/play polo or whatever without women and there is no reasonable opposition to doing so then go right ahead. Me, I like mixed pools even though I feel a real tool for wearing boardies at a pool but dick-togs are not an option - I wax for nobody (no, not *you*, nobody).

It is unlikely to be approved but let them ask. Don't go making weak klan associations or go on about driving wedges in society, that's slack and too easy. After all we're talking about some pool-time for a few people, hardly enough to get excited about.

Swimming creatures that do not have both fins and scales - no good, can't eat those.

No invertebrates allowed either. Nothing without a backbone can get in.

But you know, if you char a caterpillar, it gets real stiff...

When I was at uni, all the lefty women were constantly moaning about how discriminated against they were.

They even set up a Women's Centre where they could discuss the issue. This took up a prime piece of University real-estate. It was a place where women could come that men weren't allowed.

Then, they strong-armed the uni bar into giving them Women's nights, from which men were banned.

I had nothing against these initiatives at the time, but they did seem kinda discriminatory.

The question Jake is who is driving the wedge in the first place.

Is one group entitled to seek a change to existing rules, and if I object is that me driving a wedge? I would suggest the wedge is being driven by the group seeking the change.

Its pretty simple really, someone elses religious belief would be preventing me from doing something I would ordinarily be able to do. That is not acceptable.

Biggo makes a good point. Rent the entire pool for a couple of hours, there are 50 people making the application according to the article. But rather than doing that they are off to try and get an exemption from anti-discrimation laws - now who did you say is driving the wedge?

You say yourself "After all we're talking about some pool-time for a few people, hardly enough to get excited about." Its a good point - who the hell takes pool access rights to court - someone with an agenda!

Jake D

It doesn't matter if you,pay to get into a public swimming pool or not, it is still a PUBLIC institution, and as such should not be allowed to discriminate unfairly as it exists a priori to serve the public as a whole. The only exception is if the public votes to allow the discrimination.
A private institution, on the other hand, should be able to discriminate in any way it thinks fit. To argue anything else is merely sophistry.

I like to watch.

Agenda - maybe Gilly, maybe not. Let's not get all "conspiracy theory" about it.

I also agree with Biggo, good idea, but perhaps too expensive? If they can do that then fine for everybody - except the people not invited!!!!!!!! Damn that type of discrimination!!!!!LOL :-).

You may wish to reconsider the relgiion down the throat business, look who's religion our society is based on. We have more than enough "christian" influences in our lifes. I also failed to see the paragraph that said you couldn't swim any other time or place.

Anyway, enough talk about wedges, I'm getting hungry. Pass the sauce....

jake,
Clubs such as the VRC have been forced by law to cease being gender exclusive. And fair enough. So why are muslim men exempt from that law? Does this mean I can start my Church of the Divine Ocker (1st Commandment, NO SHIELAS!!)?

Jake, I think Tim's reference to the KKK is quite appropriate, specifically concerning white separatists. They "believe" and "teach" that it is wrong for the races to mix socially, hence no swimming with blacks. The correlation is the same. Both groups--the K3 and those particular Muslims asking for their "special" rights--are coming from their own cultural and belief systems. Does the KKK get their night at the public pool, too?

Toryhere,

Check my posts again, if the LOCALS who USE that facility approve of the changes then those that don't can shut up. If however, the LOCALS that USE the facilities don't like the idea then see ya later fellas. You restated my point.

Also, why no outrage at some muslims being compared to the KKK? What was that about selective use of information? Since this was a part of my original rant I'm suprised no one else has picked it up.

>> "We have more than enough "christian" influences in our lifes."

Yeah, Jake D.

The Salvos.
Easter holidays.
Christmas holidays.
Fish and chips on Fridays.
Good schools.
New Norcia Monastery bread.
Kicking up your heels on a Sunday.
Benny Hinn.

Christian influences suck, man.

No one said the Muslims are like the KKK, merely that they both seem interested in practicing segregation in accordance with their own value system.

And I'm not going conspriacy theorist. You mentioned the wedge, I was merely questioning motivation. If its no big deal why go to the time, hassle and expense of taking it to court.

Yes, as well as much of the music and art of the last couple thousand years.

They don't suck Big Ram, but you've missed the point so I'll move along - this is getting tedious.

cardeblu,
you phrase your arguement for Tim well, if too briefly, but I don't agree with you, you're comparing hate groups to a small group of guys who want to swim without chick seeing them in show-me-dicks. They're asking, not demanding or using force so not a good comparison.

Slatts, right you are. However, if women can have their activites conducted seperate to men then men can from women. That is fair, not on a "if they can, we can" platform but on a basis that sometimes a male/female will wish to do things without female/males around to watch/participate/whatever.

In very quick summary: A group of islamic men want to use the pool with only other men around. It's at a public pool. They ask if they can. As they are living in Australia they have that thing called a "right" to ask if they can. They may be refused and maybe should be refused. They can still ask and they will only get what they want as long as the other users don't object. If no-one objects then leave them be. If a fair objection is lodged and upholded they will have to make use of it like all others. Simple.

Thank God they haven't asked for a publicly funded school.

Where's the hairy-legged boiler-suit brigade when you need them? Probably on the council making the decision; irony is not a concept well understood by the lunar left.
(And why are almost all metropolitan councils now run by refugees from the Socialist Workers Party?)

Jake D wins this on points.

It's not really about about a bunch of guys who want to swim alone - that may be right or wrong.

What it's really about is how our elected Councils swing into warp-speed action when it comes to social engineering; where they otherwise move at snail's pace, if at all, on their core competencies.

Try getting your pergola approved.

Yeah, go Rammy. Pagan holidays repackaged as Christian. Fish and chips, oo-wee. Kick up your heels at Sunday Mass. Try not to do it during the interminable sermon. (I will never put shit on the Salvos, though.)

Creflo your Dollar further.

Thank God they haven't asked for a publicly funded school.

As far as I can tell every private school gets public funding, so every school is to an extent publicly funded.

Probably better than them going cap in hand to Saudi Arabia.

Prick

Don't be discouraged my brother show these heathen Christians that they are only ones deserving of vilification apart from the Jews.

Er, fair bit of vilification of A-rabs going on hereabouts. Or hadn't you noticed?

>> "Yeah, go Rammy. Pagan holidays repackaged as Christian."

Christmas and Easter have always been Christian IMHO. You're not getting mixed up with Halloween are ya, moron?

>> "Fish and chips, oo-wee."

Great part of growing up with Christian parents. Fish and chips on Fridays ruled, mofo!!! Suck shit you missed out.

>> "Kick up your heels at Sunday Mass. Try not to do it during the interminable sermon."

You idiot, prick. Nothing to do with going to church.

Hey Rammy

Ahistorical idiocy. I guess Good Ole God and Happy Jeebers Sandals invented spring and midwinter festivals. And fish and chips.

Infallible sign of losing position -- ad hominem.

Hey, look, I lose -- Ram-head' s a wanker!

Sorry, have to split now. If Ram's got a substantive point to make, I'll address it tomorrow, when the thread will be dead and buried. In the meantime -- well, yr a bit thk.

Well played, Jake D . . . a little perspective, as you say, is very helpful in keeping a level head.

Has anyone thought of the future ramifications - first, no women, next no Infidels?

Well, Thorn, one would be a reasonable accommodation of a legitimate religious belief causing no great hardship to the rest of the community and entirely consistent with a pluralistic society and the other wouldn't.

What's so difficult about that?

Fuck.

Thanks for that clarification, Jake.

Excuse me, but jake doesn't win on any points, because nowhere in the koran or the haddiths does it say anything about swimming with women. If screwed up muslim cultists had their way, all Aussie babes would be covered. But we don't live in a cultist society, and our society isn't bound by any religous laws, or cults.

Secondly, we live in a secular society, and the rule of law isn't based on religion, religion is something you have a right to, in your own privacy.

There was a crazy muslim woman who didn't want her picture taken for a drivers licience in the USA, remember that?
Under islam law, she shouldn't even be driving.
At any rate, she lost her case.

Religion is the greatest curse of human kind. Don't give them one fucking inch by pandering to their organised self-delusion.

The only proper response to this is direct action - troops of young, athletic women forcing their way into the men's only sessions completely sans cossies. Where are the Greenpeace activists and nude protestors when you need them?

Christmas and Easter have always been Christian IMHO.

You're kidding, right? Why do you think Easter is called "Easter" and not "Jesus Resurrection Day"?

"a reasonable accommodation of a legitimate religious belief causing no great hardship to the rest of the community"

What about the female half of that community? They would be specifically excluded from using the pool merely on the basis of someone else's superstitions? The Muslims, on the other hand, are not specifically excluded, they can go swimming anytime they like, but they CHOOSE not too because of their superstitions.

Like Toryhere said earlier, maybe they're just worried about "shrinkage" a la Seinfeld. I didn't know George Costanza was of the Islamic faith! Who knew?

Future headlines, courtesy of the allegdly feminist left:

8 February 2005: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against men and women eating together, women are barred from San Francisco City Hall during lunchtime.

11 October 2006: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against women showing any part of their bodies in public, women are required to wear ankle-length skirts on the street in Adelaide.

5 March 2007: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against interrupting men at prayer, women are forbidden from being in the same building as a man during the hours of worship in Paris.

23 December 2007: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against women having financial power over men, females are barred from working in the banking, insurance, and securities industry in the UK.

11 January 2009: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against women having political power over men, females are barred from voting in Michigan. The 19th amendment to the US Constution is repealed by state legislatures in order not to offend the Muslim community.

4 November 2010: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community, the ban on female voting is extended to New York, California, Texas, Florida, and 34 other states.

17 April 2011: In order to accomodate the religious beliefs of the Muslim community against women having mobility, women are confined indoors except when accompanied by a close male relative in Australia.

30 March 2012: In order to accomodate the Muslim injunction against homosexuality, gay sex is made a capital offense in Germany. 3,400 gay men are public executed by knocking buildiings on top of them.

19 January 2014: So as not to offend the Muslim community, the entire U.S. constitution is repealed, and replaced by the Koran. President Mohammed al-Ibrahim applauds the decision. The 2014 congressional elections are canceled forthwith.

6 December 2014: King Abdul bin Abdul of The Islamic Kingdom of Australia declares war on the infidels on Japan, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the Muslim community.

15 Rajab 1475: So as not to offend the sensibilities of Our Islamic Overlords, the E.U. adopts the Muslim Lunar Calendar as official. The Gregorian calendar is banned, and its use is punishable by death.

1 Safar 1477: So as not to offend the sensiblities of Our Islamic Overlords, the left hunts down and executes any remaining non-left kaffirs living in the Glorious Ummah of Europe, North America, Oceania, Japan, and India.

2 Safar 1477: Our Islamic Overlords hunt down and kill the remaining useful idiot lefist kaffirs, establishing a World Islamic Paradise for all time.

It is the stated intent of many Islamic organizations--not just 'islamists'-- to implement sharia in the nations they inhabit thus spreading islam to all the world.

The desire to get segregated bathing legislated is an example of this--had a muslim group simply requested a group time in which to swim this might never have been heard of. However, applying for a legal exemption so women can be legislatively excluded is not the same thing.

Locals AND non-locals who are opposed to allowing sharia to creep in should do what they can to see that this does not take effect.

Oh, for the record, all of the major holidays that are coomonly called 'christian' aren't. They are pagan festivals that the church was unable to eradicate--so they assimilated them.

Sorry, Jake, no points for you. It is completely irrelevant to the point whether these particular Muslims are "asking" for what they want. If their request was reasonable, then it ought to be accepted (practically by definition). The problem is that what they are asking for is NOT reasonable--it is discriminatory, and being able to get discriminatory policies through democratic processes does NOT make those policies acceptable.

That is the whole point. This particular group of men wants to limit the rights of women to access a public facility by fiat. It does not matter that they are taxpayers--so are the women they want to exclude! Again, if they want to swim without women present, they need to build their own pool. Alternatively, they could RENT the public pool so that they would be able to control access for the rental period. However, asking that the government discriminate against a class of people just because you want them to is not reasonable simply because you asked nicely.

Go re-read the article, it's hardly as inflammitory as most of you wish to believe.

1st) The council is making the submission. Not a group of Islamic men per se.
2nd) The baths already hold a women's-only night every second week. The horror! The horror!
3rd)Making some accomodation to a particular minority group isn't about to further the wholesale take over of Australia by religious zealots. Lets try that word again - "Perspective" - say it with me now - "Perspective". Unwind the tin foil for crying out loud.

Well who's the moron now?!

Since we're all repeating each other over and over again, I may as well also.

It's about city councils. Who, having discovered the soft, moist pleasures of cosying up to politically correct issues, are falling over themselves to accommodate every combination and permutation of the needs and requirements of any sect, organisation or self-proclaimed group of people who fall within the politically correct bloc, which currently includes non-anglo religions, lesbians, publically-funded artists and green activists among others.

Hi, Groundhog.

Stupidest comments I've ever seen in one post. Congratulations. And not ONE person made the relevant comment: "Who cares what Muslims (Jews, Christians, etc., think. They've no right to impose their religious beliefs on society."

On behalf of all of us - thanks jeff! Your trollish contribution adds so much. Tool.

Well, I just think it is great that the sort of dickheads that believe in anti-discrimination laws are hoist on their own petard. Repeal the damn laws and if the good citizens (and bad for that matter) of Moonee Ponds don't want muslim only swimming they can kick out the Council dweebs who brought it in.

Business people ought to be able to buy and sell to whom they damn please and politicians should be able to cater for special interests.

it's alot easier just to wipe them stinking blood cult loving muslims off the planet.

calling Islam a religion? how stupid

Did the women get a special exemption from the law to have woman-only nights twice a month? How often do the men want the men-only nights? Do they expect all men to cover themselves from navel to knee IAW muslim tradition? And if a community wants to allow white-only bathing, is that a valid reason to allow it?